Chris Titley: Hi, it's Chris Titley here as part of the Fintech Fun podcast series. I'm joined by Jordan Lawrence, co founder of Vault. Jordan, thanks so much for taking your time, uh, and being part of this podcast. Jordan Lawrence: Thanks for having me, Chris. Excited to be here. Chris Titley: Now, for the listeners out there that may be familiar with the word Vault, it's certainly not the Vault Bank, which I have interviewed in the past. Um, so coming to Australia, do you want to talk about the, the Vault story, um, Jordan, uh, and its origins and how the business began? Jordan Lawrence: Yes, certainly. So, um, vault is, uh, basically real time payments everywhere is that is our saying, um, the goal is for vault is to to go around the world, um, and connect people. The account to account payment methods, uh, in each country into a single point of integration. So merchants, PSPs, acquirers, integrators can just plug into vault and have access to the world of account to account payments, which we're calling a real time and obviously compared to cards. Jordan Lawrence: Uh, it is so, uh, we started in, in Europe when the PSC 2 regulation came around, um, which, which, which basically made open banking. So we have, uh, open banking in Europe, faster payments, um, in the UK, that's where Volt started. So, um, the challenge was at the beginning when, uh, open banking first came around was that, um, yeah, again, PSPs and merchants had to go kind of country by country, region by region, plugging in a third party provider, um, to those APIs to the banks in order to get a decent coverage, um, across Europe and the UK. Jordan Lawrence: So what we thought was, you know, Let's plug in all those third party providers ourselves, right? Um, so all people have to do is integrate into vault and they have access to, um, you know, open banking across Europe and faster payments in the UK initially. When we started doing that, we realized there was kind of 70 countries around the world making their own version of, uh, of real time payments, account to account. Jordan Lawrence: So we thought, okay, this is a bigger issue. And so we started, um, you know, plugging in other countries as well. Our first foray outside of Europe was, uh, was Brazil. So we have an office in Sao Paulo in process PIX down there. PIX is, uh, the equivalent of your guy's kind of pay ID. Um, uh, and then it's, it's, it's gone really, really well. Jordan Lawrence: So Brazil, the, the challenge was that, um, your merchants would have to wait 30 days to get their money from the card schemes, which was very difficult. If you're a kind of new player on the market, um, where, you know, It's kind of T minus two seconds, right? Because it's account to account. So it revolutionized everything and 86 percent of all payments in Brazil now go through PICS. Jordan Lawrence: Um, UPI in India is a similar success story. Um, and obviously NPP products here in Australia with Pay2 and PayID, I think are quite slow to adopt compared to those as, you know, Everybody's quite interested in using their cards here. They'll tap and pay or the rest of it. But I think adoption is coming fast, to be honest. Chris Titley: Jordan, I'm interested about the question from a, from a social good point of view and also, um, from, from a business point of view, how important it is to be, you know, as you mentioned, from 30 days to, to two seconds. And, and, you know, why some businesses potentially here in Australia haven't adopted it? Chris Titley: Because I would have thought that it would actually speed things up from a monetary point of view, which ultimately will continue to, to grow businesses per se. Okay. Jordan Lawrence: Yeah, I mean, the adoption, uh, is slow, but as I say, it's coming. And I think in various verticals, it does make a big impact. The whole thing is going to be driven by merchants, right? Um, because it's account to account, it's an API call at the end of the day. So it's a much more cost effective way to pay for something, um, from a transaction fee perspective than a card, right? Jordan Lawrence: So the merchants are benefiting massively. It's a lot more transparent for the, um, for the consumer. Um, so yeah, as I say, I think it will grow and it will be, it will be merchant pushed as they'll be saving so much money. It's just a behavioral situation right here in Australia. People are getting cash back on their credit cards. Jordan Lawrence: People are getting points all over the place. Um, and there's nothing really yet which ties in points with the payments. So there's an equivalent of the account to account to make it beneficial for the consumer as well. All that's coming. Um, and I think the kind of new generation is, is really in favor of these account to account payments rather than cards anyway, because of the transparency. Jordan Lawrence: Um, but certainly as I say, I think the merchants will, will, will push it here. Um, what becomes interesting also, I think with vault specifically is that because we're plugged into all these countries, um, later on in the year, we're launching in the U S we're launching six more countries in Southeast Asia, five more in LATAM. Jordan Lawrence: So merchants in Australia. You know, who've got international ambitions can plug into us, use the MPP products, but also we can act as a merchant of record in the other countries and actually process these accounts or account payments for them there as well, bringing effectively, um, consumers to the merchants here, right? Chris Titley: Yeah, it certainly opens up. Um, I would have thought from, from businesses that, that operate in multi jurisdictional, um, areas that the ease and simplicity of a product such as Volt will, will allow for a sort of a greater market of. Um, businesses, I suppose, for, for, for using the product. And as you grow into different geographies, then that will open up another set of markets. Chris Titley: So am I on the right assumptions there? Jordan Lawrence: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how it's going to go. And I think people, when they get their head around, um, the accounts or account payments, whichever country they are, and they see how easy it is to switch on new markets, that will definitely start expanding the horizons, even if it wasn't on the, uh, on the roadmap, uh, previously, I think what's, what else is interesting as well is. Jordan Lawrence: You know, each of these, let's say domestic payment methods has its own brand. So obviously you've got pay to and pay ID here picks in Brazil, UPI in India. It goes on and on. What Bolt does by being this kind of network of networks is effectively build a marketplace of domestic payment methods. Right? So. Jordan Lawrence: I'll give you an example of what I mean. Um, vol actually enables people in Brazil using their local Brazilian bank account and effectively a PICS payment to pay in Europe at the point of sale at the moment, right? Later on in the year, we'll launch a collaboration with WellPay and UPI in India, which actually enables people from UPI, people from India using their local Indian bank account and UPI in the UK, which there are a lot of Indians in the UK. Jordan Lawrence: Uh, and they can actually then use UPI in the UK. And that's what we're going to do with NPP as well. Right. So we'll be able to allow Australians around the world to actually use their local bank to pay locally in Europe or Brazil, wherever, wherever else we are, the U S by then, and then it becomes a even more attractive play because you've internationalized the domestic payment rails. Chris Titley: No, for sure. Um, the idea of sort of like the ability to, to, to pay in multi currencies and, and, and not just multi currencies, but certainly the, the, the ease and quick, um, uh, the efficiency, I suppose, of, of getting paid, as I've said before, is very important. What's some of the feedback that you've got? Chris Titley: from some of your customers thus far, um, in regards to, to product. Have you built out the marketplace in a, in a good user experience or do people say, Oh, actually I'd rather, you know, be able to deal in this particular currency or this particular way. Can you, can you, can you change that for instance? Jordan Lawrence: Yeah, I'll be honest. Like, unfortunately at the moment it's, it's so nascent to all of these products, right? So it's, it's not perfect. It's definitely not as easy as tapping a card and walking out or, or, you know, You know, or a familiar way to pay for something online, like a PayPal, kind of one click. Uh, so each country has its own nuances. Jordan Lawrence: Um, you know, repeat customers at the checkout using Vault, uh, is around, uh, 36%. So that means, uh, 36 percent of people who use Vault once will use it again, uh, which is, I think, a really good sign. So that will only get better and better. Um, uh, so yeah, feedback has been good so far. Merchants, of course, love it. Jordan Lawrence: The fees, the fee that's flashed. Uh, dramatically from their, their card schemes and what have you. Um, so the feedback on merchant, of course, has been amazing. And of course, operating cashflow, um, is increased ginormously cause the, um, the cash just enters your account immediately. So merchants love it. Jordan Lawrence: Consumers are a little over here in Australia are a little bit, uh, Beholden to their own banking UX, which I think in some cases is a lot to be desired, to be honest, um, you know, but again, it will just get better and better. So pay to when you make a payment. First of all, you've got to sign a mandate. If you want to sign a kind of, um, ongoing mandate where they can rather than a one off payment mandate, where they can, uh, the merchant can keep taking money out of your account can be a bit of a clunky experience on some of the Let's say bigger banks, but again, getting better and better. Jordan Lawrence: I think for the merchants side, they love it. The consumer side. There's a way to go on the UX from the banking side of things. Chris Titley: And then if I repeat this interview, let's say in 12 months time with you, wherever you may be in the world, what would you like to see or the progress of Vault, or is there some sort of short term aspiration within the group of what you want to achieve? Jordan Lawrence: Yeah, so, uh, vault raised, um, another 60 million U. S. dollars around eight months ago to help us with our product and expansion, right? So, um, that's why we're expanding into all these new countries by then we'll be in around, uh, 50 countries. Um, you know, which is great. Uh, keep in mind, we've got EMI licenses in Europe. Jordan Lawrence: We're applying for licenses elsewhere, um, which obviously, Enables us to start issuing bank accounts. So, um, what I'd love to see in 12 months time is in these 50 countries, the ability to vault to vault, to be able to issue accounts locally to merchants and PSPs, collect the funds locally and start remitting the money around the world as well, uh, wherever the merchants want to pay out, um, wherever the merchants want to, uh, send. Jordan Lawrence: Uh, money, which will be a traditional FX transaction vault being obviously the, the on ramp effectively to that, uh, to that transaction. That's that, I think that that will be a good achievement for the next 12 months. Chris Titley: Now, Jordan, let's talk a little bit, uh, a little bit about yourself and what you get up to, uh, in your spare time. Chris Titley: You've been in Sydney, uh, now about, um, uh, oh, I caught up with you about six weeks ago. How long have you been in the country and, and what do you, um, what do you do in your spare time? Do you enjoy, uh, have you enjoyed the Sydney and Australian lifestyle? Well, Jordan Lawrence: I'm sorry, spare time is, uh, That's Chris Titley: right, sorry. Chris Titley: I'll rephrase that, uh, in any moments that you may have to breathe, uh, outside a vault. Jordan Lawrence: Yeah, that has been a very intense, uh, a few months. I got here, uh, January 15th, and I'm actually going back to Europe tomorrow. Uh, so April 5th, um, via Perth. Actually, my brother lives on, on the West Coast. He's been here for about 15 years. Jordan Lawrence: Um, so every time I come over here, I pop in, pop in and see him. Um, but spare time. I love to surf. So I'm actually staying in Manly here. I've been here for the last few months. Every morning, I managed to get a surf in before work, which has been great. Uh, your guys lifestyle is a fantastic to be honest. Um, so yeah, super happy to, to manage to be here on the Northern beaches, get a surf in. Jordan Lawrence: Um, and yeah, I think I'd try and spend as much time with the family as possible, uh, yeah, which has been challenging. Chris Titley: I did, uh, when I chatted to you, um, was it would have been about six, six weeks ago, um, you did sort of mention that you have popped around a little bit in the world. Do you want to give the listeners a bit of a journey on your last few years and where you've lived? Jordan Lawrence: Yeah. So, um, when we started vault about five years ago, I was living in Amsterdam in the Netherlands where I had a previous company, uh, which is called PCN. It's, um, FinTech, um, consulting business started that in 2008. Um, there's a big staffing and recruitment arm of that kind of media business there. Jordan Lawrence: It's still going managed to exit that at the beginning of last year, but that was in Amsterdam. Um, and, um, During the pandemic, moved down to Portugal, never, uh, never come back really from there. Um, I was, uh, given my job, I was also heading up the, uh, expansion into Brazil. So I was in Brazil for a while. Um, yeah, then, yeah, as I say, we're headquartered in London, so I'm probably there a week a month and then, um, moved over here in, uh, in January. Jordan Lawrence: So it's been a bit of a rollercoaster the last few years. Chris Titley: Um, two questions on the back of that. How's the surf here in Australia compared to the rest of the world? Jordan Lawrence: I mean, you've got sharks here, which are quite prevalent, uh, compared to where, where I live in Portugal, where, you know, where there's nothing, you can sort of just bask around and not worry about those kind of things. Chris Titley: Not Jordan Lawrence: that I've seen any here, but, uh, you know they're there, so it's a little bit different. Uh, but no, stuff's amazing. I mean, you're in a pair of shorts, uh, you know, water's warm. Yeah, that's great. I think one of them, the best, best evidence to that is, you know, North Narrabeen, Kelly Slater himself had a house there for a while, right? Jordan Lawrence: So that's, uh, that says it all. No, it's great. Chris Titley: And the second question on the back of that, for someone that travels so much, what's some travel tips that, uh, the amateur punter that doesn't travel very often would love to get from someone that does travel a lot? Jordan Lawrence: Oh, I'd say that's a good question. I wouldn't consider myself an expert traveler. Jordan Lawrence: I still find myself in all sorts of troubles. We're going to the airport. Uh, well, I guess, I guess, um, a good tip, you know, oddly, I still see people, even in our company, when they book flights, they don't select the seats. So they get to the airport and they come and check in, uh, without checking in online and then they get a, they get a seat issued to them. Jordan Lawrence: It's 32B and they're in the middle crammed in for four hours, five hours. Never forget to book the seat. Chris Titley: Always book the seat. Great tip. And uh, what about the jet lag? Do you cope okay? Do you know Jordan Lawrence: what? It's something that's never really, um, affected me that badly, jet lag. You kind of just pull through. I drink a lot of coffee. Jordan Lawrence: Maybe that's what happens. Chris Titley: Maybe that's what happens. Melatonin Jordan Lawrence: is always good as well. Take a load of melatonin halfway through the flight. Chris Titley: Yeah, and sleep, sleep when you can and make sure you sort of line up with, uh, with the, uh, the time zone. Perhaps easier said than done, but Jordan, uh, Congratulations on what you've done with Vault so far and to the geographic expansion that you've, that you've achieved. Chris Titley: And also in the next 12 months, obviously a big 12 months ahead for the business. Well, I hope you've had a great time in Australia. Obviously great to catch up when you were here, but I'm looking forward to catching up again in real life, wherever you may be and all the best for Vault. Jordan Lawrence: Thanks, Chris. Uh, thanks. Jordan Lawrence: That's awesome. And thanks for the invite again. Do you want to tell me what's going on with the boats in the background? Maybe that's been asked a few times, but, uh, Chris Titley: Oh, it's just, uh, I work out of an office there where the person enjoys some model boats. So, uh, there's about six or half a dozen of them. Chris Titley: And, um, I'm not a boating person per se myself, but, uh, The office that I work out of, uh, the, uh, the person that runs the, runs the office, uh, is so, yep. Um, so model boats to get the conversation started for people that actually do love the boats. So it's, um, the conversation doesn't go that far after they speak to me, but, uh, Jordan, thanks so much again. Chris Titley: And, uh, yeah, look, really look forward to catching up. Jordan Lawrence: Awesome. Thank you.