Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, it does. It feels totally like Wayne's World. Hey everyone. We're already riffing like crazy. It's the 20th of December, the last day of the year for me. About to go on holidays with my family. But we are not done yet. It's been an incredible year. We're going to finish strong with an amazing story of Forbidden Labs.

Mick Liubinskas
And we have Janet to share that story. Janet, welcome.

Janet Salem
Hey Mick.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, great to have you here. Just want to start with a quick elevator pitch. Tell us about what you do?

Janet Salem
What do we do? We provide really high-quality environmental data that can be added to financial data so that everyone can know the carbon footprint of what they're spending money on.

Mick Liubinskas
Right, great. Fantastic. Well, let's just dive into the problem you're solving. Tell me about how you play a role in getting us to a climate-positive planet?

Janet Salem
Our end game is really climate finance. We want to get money to the solutions, whether that's low-carbon ways of doing things, energy production, products, or other types of solutions like offsets.

Janet Salem
But those things that are available and ready to scale, they don't necessarily have the pipeline to them. And so what we do is, we work on building that pipeline by making sure that anytime you spend money on anything, you can know what your carbon footprint is. So what is your connection to those problems?

Janet Salem
And once you know that as an individual, as a business, as an institution, then you can start thinking about options. And then other people will need to come in to make that connection. So if I, for instance, buy a cup of coffee for $8, I might find that it had a carbon footprint of, let's say, 4 kilograms.

Janet Salem
So that opens up the space, especially through the emerging, amazing fintech world, to then say, "Hey, do you want to offset it? Do you want to see lower carbon options nearby?" That sort of thing. Yeah, fantastic.

Mick Liubinskas
And that's, I want to get into the big ambition and where we're up to next. We've been doing some amazing work with you.

Mick Liubinskas
You've been a part of the global growth program and it's been wonderful to see you thriving. I'd like to go back just briefly, what's your origin story? Like, either tell us about yours and Forbidden Labs. How did you get started on this?

Janet Salem
Well, the Global Growth Program was perfect because I come from a global background.

Janet Salem
I worked for the UN for 17 years working on sustainability programs. And that's so, so my thinking really is global. Right from the start, we were using data at the UN from the University of Sydney, and that data covered the material footprint, the carbon footprint, land footprint of everything, everywhere, all at once.

Janet Salem
The problem was that I was using this amazing data to inform policy projects, to identify where the priorities are for specific countries. You know, you could really break it down with this data. But that's, you know, everyone knows like, when's the last time you read a UN report from start to finish?

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, it's been a little while.

Janet Salem
Yeah, so that is my origin story. I was so frustrated that this great data, all the insights were there, solutions are then, you know, over here, not scaling to what we need. And so I really wanted to get that data to the point of decision-making, which bridges that gap between those economic decisions we all make as a business or as an individual that do cause or drive climate change through those complex supply chains that are very far away.

Janet Salem
If we could link what we're all doing, professionally and personally to climate change, then I hoped that could create more of a pipeline for the solution. So as a founder, I was like, what should I do? I thought I'll do a PhD, you know, amazing. So I started a PhD with a team that makes this data with the intent of bringing it more to the fintech world because every financial transaction was digitizing at the same time.

Janet Salem
It's hard to remember that that wasn't the case, you know, five, six years ago. There was still a lot of cash, but now that everything had been digital, I was like, put the data there. But then during the PhD, all these companies started asking for data. You know, we want to build this solution or this app or this carbon calculator. And that's when I thought, okay, I think I could have a bigger impact if I left the UN and then really focused on bridging, you know, getting this data to where it's needed. So that we can have a hope at scaling climate finance.

Mick Liubinskas
Right, so it's an interesting intersection that you've been driving at. So how long has it been since you left the UN and been building this new vision?

Janet Salem
Two years. How are you feeling about that journey? So obviously it's not all solved and that's not all on you.

Mick Liubinskas
I really want to check in in terms of, I think there's a lot of people who see the problem and are trying to work on the solution, especially right here at the end of 2024, which has been a tough year. But actually, I think we've made some progress. So this combination of feeling momentum, but being stuck at the same time. Where are your emotions at and your energy levels to go and drive this forward?

Janet Salem
Yeah, we're actually feeling the opposite for us. It's been an inflection point, especially with the global growth program, because the way it works is that a country will set a net zero target. So if I can net zero by 2040, 2050, 2060, once they've set that goal, collectively as a society, they're saying, okay, it will happen. The first thing that they then have to do is then figure out where the non net zero things are. Like, where are the carbon footprints? And that's where the ESG disclosures start to come in. So this has been really big, Singapore, India, Australia, even China. They're all announcing that disclosures will be mandatory. And then that's where we come in. Because as someone who supported international policy, I really feel for policymakers because there's all these great policy instruments that they have, they could put in, but if they can't be implemented, that's a problem.

Janet Salem
So that's when we come in and we say, okay, no problem. We can work with banks or fintechs to layer in that data so that a business that has to disclose can just look at their general ledger or their transactions and then just see what the carbon footprint is. And there they go. They can report. Now, obviously, you want to get more specific over time. You want to know specifically which vendor had which footprint. But as a starting point, there is no reason not to start now and, and that's what we're finding exciting.

Mick Liubinskas
It is really complex, right? I think it's, there's no getting away from that. I think it's part of the reality and I know you've always brought such a positive can-do attitude to this, no matter where we are in this, on the rollercoaster ride of this industry. But it is really interesting to think you've got this, you've got past data and then you've got a future, which is kind of unknown. And then you've got, you've got scientific information and then you've got a narrative and a story and you've got strategy and emotion and you've got pure finance. And you've got, you, you, it all has to work, right? You can't, you certainly can't be like, why doesn't the world just take trillions of dollars and put it towards climate positive because it'll, it'll work out in the end. And even though I believe that's probably true, like you just can't disassemble all of that. And, and then go and make a better, better world. We've got, we've got to do it with the tools we've got right now and the world we've got right now. And I think that I really see that in footprint labs. It's been like, you know what you, uh, how do you actually generally take where we are and move forward rather than thinking it's broken, let's, let's fix it.

Janet Salem
Yes. And it's, you know, it's exactly what climate salad is. Like no one wants to eat lettuce on its own, right? No one's sitting there chewing on some lettuce, but then you also don't want to eat a bowl of just tomatoes or like croutons or no one wants olive dressing, right?

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
So, you know, it really doesn't work on its own. What we're doing is information. Is information going to solve climate change? No, but the, the, the other amazing businesses that are in climate salad or in, in other parts of the world that can produce energy cleanly, they can produce leather, you know, without carbon-intensive, you know, cows, they, there are all those solutions.

Janet Salem
And what we just want to do is bridge to them. And the bridge is I guess between like policies and the solutions. And then the businesses are stuck in the middle saying, oh, what do we do? But basically every business is going to have to measure, you know, reduce. Decarbonize offset. Right. So once they have to do all of that, we can help them with the measurement, but then our real goal is that those beautiful solutions that we're seeing it just, you know, it just kills me that if they don't scale, that would be a disaster, but once the company knows, okay, Oh, what's going on with, you know, the, um, Our events are super carbon intensive. We need to go like low carbon events. Okay. Let's look at the catering. Let's look at our energy. Let's look at components of our products. Then they can start to look at the other parts of climate salad, um, that have those solutions ready.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is really. And that's the name of this podcast is, is the mix. Um, and it is really about that. Um, I know. It's, it's my general go-to approach, which is, um, you know, try lots of different things and then it's about driving, driving the depth. And that's an interesting question for me to you is the, we have had that, that I call it the sort of the bite of regulation now, like, okay.

Mick Liubinskas
I've made a claim now started measuring, uh, and, and actually the cost of not acting is actually going up and up and up. So therefore I can start to look, as you said, to all those other solutions in climate salad and otherwise after actually genuinely. Uh, improve my financial situation by making better environmental choices.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. Where do you see Australia and the world at in that continuum between total ignorance and total climate positivity? Like where do you, where do you feel we're all at?

Janet Salem
When I started uni in the 90s, that was when Australia had the world's best photovoltaic R&D, right? So you had like this amazing technology and solutions were there, but Australia also hadn't really agreed that climate change was real on a policy level.

Janet Salem
So you had this disconnect between the representatives of our society that set what it is that we want to achieve, or avoid, and the solutions for that beautiful future. And so that's why you saw a lot of that really amazing research go abroad. And Australia is actually one of the lowest research commercializing countries in the OECD.

Janet Salem
Just really great at doing research, not great at bringing it into commercial reality, which also is where the impact is. So fast forward now, we're also really good at innovation R&D, and we're getting much better at research commercialization, but we're really more in the, like, we're good at prototyping.

Janet Salem
And I think the best option for entrepreneurs in this space in Australia has been, look, work with researchers, get it into a prototype, minimum viable product. And then once you've proven that the case or how you've got your proof of concept, then you can go abroad and there's a lot of opportunities abroad.

Janet Salem
And I think like the, also there's been a lot of support from government to establish Australia and specifically New South Wales as the carbon services hub to the world. And why not? We've got really like world-leading research. The data I'm working on commercializing has been used by the UN for a couple of decades now.

Janet Salem
So, you know, why not? And the other thing I'm learning as I get more and more in the FinTech world, there's a lot of innovation in terms of the structures around data and fintech. So open banking, open energy. These aren't common abroad. So there's a lot of, um, you can experiment a lot. So our general like growth plan is we develop solutions.

Janet Salem
We test out anything that's particularly innovative in Australia. And if we want to test for scale, India is a great place. Amazing fintech users, providers to the world. And then if you want to commercialize it, it's Singapore. And in the future, of course, we need to go into Europe more in the US, but right now, Asia Pacific, they're moving very fast on policy and they're underserved in, in climate data and all the other types of data that we have.

Janet Salem
Whilst trying to have those policies and ESG requirements and also being hit by the expectations of investors globally of trade. Um, yeah, global supply chains. So it's kind of our focus at the moment.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. And it's just intrigued me to see the difference here. Like prior to climate tech, it was like, basically go to Silicon Valley. Go to a software company, go to Silicon Valley. But Europe's been so far ahead of the regulation and then obviously Brexit, not great, but still obviously, um, you know, strong markets, strong regulation. U. S. seem to catch up with the Facial Reduction Act and a lot of states making really bold decisions. Uh, and Asia was, I think, uh, clearly a massive part of the problem and solution and highly motivated.

Mick Liubinskas
But, uh, I, certainly in the start of climate salad, and I started my work sort of seven or eight years ago, Asia seemed to be like probably one of the harder markets. I agree over the last 12 months. I've seen a massive shift. Um, certainly China going from a mystery to an absolute nutter committed to the solutions like game-changing cities and EVs and batteries and like they're like, wow, this is.

Mick Liubinskas
We can get climate benefits and we can grow the economy. Um, and obviously it's not perfect yet. Like it's, it's still using coal fire power plants, of course, but they're installing massive amounts of solar, I mean, and hydro. Um, and then as you said, Singapore being really, really strong, India seeing the challenges, uh, and acting on it, Japan and Korea, really, really strong Southeast Asia, like wrapping up regulation, like.

Mick Liubinskas
Uh, and your mix of approach there about some R&D here, test in India, go to Singapore, look globally, that sounds hard, but that's like, it's open to you because again, you've got that global connection and you're like, that's, that's just the journey you need to follow to make, make this work.

Janet Salem
Yeah, I guess that's just where I come from.

Janet Salem
I mean, my whole career has been global where the solution that you have to work on solutions where. Um, they can be adapted for different countries. You know, no country wants something generic, but there is, um, what's important is harmonization and consistency, you know, so every, Asia Pacific, I mean, is a natural focus for me and it was in, in the UN as well.

Janet Salem
I had a global role for the first seven years. But then all the numbers were sort of like, okay, you know, Europe, US, Asia. And so I just went where the numbers were big. And it's not only where the numbers are big, it's where the growth rates are, it's where change is happening. And so with climate solutions, you want to piggyback on, on changes that are already happening.

Janet Salem
For me, that was digitization of, um, transactions rather than trying to, yeah, as a solution, trying to have the burden of introducing change. Um, yourselves, which environmentalists haven't proven to be great at.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. I, I, it is, um, again, obviously it would have been great to start decades ago, um, but I doing my masters of sustainable development.

Mick Liubinskas
Uh, was interesting to see the, uh, the big push from the UN on education and realizing that that actually was something that heavily influenced me. But the, I was just having a conversation with a friend this morning about the difference between kind of, um, a precision approach to this first, like a very strategic chess game of how this gets changed.

Mick Liubinskas
Because I think to your point around the size and scale, um, and the numbers in, in Asia are just unparalleled, but I feel like the European regulation is because of the manufacturing size of Asia, but then also the pollution impacts, negative impacts, like it's so complicated again, but it feels like that's.

Mick Liubinskas
It's already tipped from a well, if the world's going in this direction and we are, you know, a lot of the engine room of manufacturing for the world, we've got to, we've got, if we don't transition, then we might be left behind and maybe everything will drift out. And so therefore if they're thinking about how they're going to power their manufacturing and they're saying, well, thanks Australia for your coal, but you know what, it's actually a cheaper for us in every possible way and better for our local environment if we produce through solar, wind and hydro batteries.

Mick Liubinskas
Then it won't matter, right? Like Australia, like it won't matter if Australia doesn't even, doesn't have a carbon tax because we just won't be able to sell our coal as much. So the dynamics is so, so rich and intertwined. Um, yeah, it's interesting to hear your approach and understanding around that. I love the harmonization point.

Mick Liubinskas
That's really key.

Janet Salem
The EU love, love what they're doing because, um, They cover so many jurisdictions with one jurisdiction. So that's, that's the benefit of, of regionalized policymaking. And I think ASEAN, um, is really going to move that way as well because no one wants to have a different rule for everything.

Janet Salem
In so many countries, what's really important that the EU has done is that they've made their policies relevant to the rest of the world by having a border tax, um, cban the carbon border adjustment mechanism, which is the, you know, the T word, the tax, but we can't use tax. So we, we say adjustment, but suddenly, if you wanna sell competitively.

Janet Salem
There's now a business case to have a lower carbon footprint, or at least to measure it and to know it. That's where I, everywhere I go, they're always saying, well, what's the business case here?

Mick Liubinskas
And I went to Vietnam earlier this year, and there they were saying that their, um, apparel industry has lost 30 percent of their exports because they can't meet.

Janet Salem
The ESG requirements of, um, global supply chains. And so they've lost to, to Bangladesh where there is more capacity. And we've just signed on a, uh, a Cambodian bank for the same reason, so that they can help their business account holders meet global ESG reporting requirements and they don't lose out on those export, those beautiful export opportunities.

Mick Liubinskas
It is. It's a really, I'd say. Four-dimensional chess game, which is really, really interesting. And one thing I was reflecting on this morning is that even though it feels like this year has been so hard. I think we have had good momentum and good progress. We are, I think we are going in the right direction.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, we're still, we're still in the middle of the, of the fight. Um, but you signing on banks from Cambodia over here and really playing that key role is wonderful. What, what does, what does the next 12 months look like for Footprint Lab?

Janet Salem
Okay. Very, very excited. So, um. And my co-founder Tim, if he were here, he would be like, he's the Kami, he's the yin to the yang, you know, but, uh, he's not here.

Janet Salem
So the, the sort of the big dream is we can't just look at carbon. Everything has to be nature positive. So it's not just four-dimensional, suddenly it's 10-dimensional, but you know, we have the same data. Like the same structure for material footprint, which is the raw materials that are taken from the ground per dollar of what you spent.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
And that's actually my favorite metric. Um, so I'm really hoping that people will start to embrace a wider range of metrics, do what we've done for carbon accounting. Uh, but for other things, so, and it's like these things that are so, you know, would you have a clue of how many raw materials are needed, let's say, for the average Australian for your average consumption every day, how many kilograms of raw materials are taken from the earth for one day, would you even have a guess like one kilo is like.

Mick Liubinskas
Well, I know that, um, from, um, the electrify everything to the teams that I use about 12 kilograms of coal per day. So I'm, I'm guessing it's probably close to 50 kilos.

Janet Salem
Yeah, it's actually 200, over 200 kilos per person, quarter of a ton of stuff. So imagine, you know, if you had to be fully self-sufficient, you'd have to like every day.

Janet Salem
Dig up, um, and it does not include water. It's just digging up stuff from agriculture, forestry, fishery and mines, uh, for one day of the typical Australian consumption.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah,

Janet Salem
um, and so we also have disaggregations so we can actually isolate. Palm oil, for instance, um, or other kinds of materials that have a specific impact on biodiversity.

Janet Salem
And we can also know which countries. And so, once we start to get, we see this discussion about nature positive. Development is we can't just be thinking about climate change as carbon only just in the same way as, you know, for health. We don't just look at calories. We need to look at nutrition.

Janet Salem
We need to look at, you know, whether we're getting the right vitamins, et cetera, et cetera. We need to be thinking about nature the same way. And so knowing the water footprint, material footprint, land footprint, biodiversity footprint, and then the social things we've got, labor footprint, gender footprint, modern slavery footprint.

Janet Salem
So getting that more holistic data enrichment into every dollar that is spent all around the world. Um, or planned to be spent because we have the projections. That's my goal for the next 12 months is to broaden out what we've done for carbon accounting.

Mick Liubinskas
It's the ambition of which matches the size of the problem, right?

Mick Liubinskas
And I think that's, that's really key. What, just curious personally, because I know you've got a lot of knowledge and passion and wisdom around this. What's your engagement philosophy like? Do you, do you engage, like, there's a lot of people here who either don't understand it or actively trying to fight against what we're trying to do.

Mick Liubinskas
Is your view that we have to engage and try to convince them or is it stay focused on those people who get the solution and trying to work on it? Like, where's our energy best spent?

Janet Salem
So I actually grapple with this a lot because sometimes I feel like I'm using the UN hat, which is You don't have to think about a business, right?

Janet Salem
So you're going to where the, where the people are not convinced and you engage and you understand what's worrying and you sort of then can shape your messages through lenses that matter to them.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
Important. We can't just, you know, greenbash. Um, but then as a business, uh, there's two schools of thought.

Janet Salem
One is that you need to invest some time educating the market. So that's where they're not convinced that this is, you're selling them something. They're not. Looking for, um, Indonesia is a good case in point that there's no requirement on scope three reporting, but we've been there now, um, twice this year.

Janet Salem
Austrade is very keen. We think they're going to introduce mandatory requirements. We spend a lot of time educating banks, fintechs, um, stock exchange chambers of commerce. Without getting paid for it. Right. So you sort of then have to think, Oh yeah, we have, you know, fiduciary duty as directors to maintain a business and need to pay our suppliers and staff.

Janet Salem
So then you sort of think, okay, the main engagement is where is this an easy sell, you know, and that's why I think fintechs have been to a lot of fintech festivals where you say, guys, you've already got. 99 percent of the infrastructure in place do carbon accounting, you know, with our help, you can just add that 1 percent and offer an extremely valuable service that's actually strong business case because that market is, is a multi, multi-billion dollar market globally that you want to get into, but secondly, you can then meet investor expectations around what are you doing to mitigate your climate risk?

Janet Salem
You know, are you part of the transition or are you going to lose out to others? Um, so there's a couple of business reasons why they can do it. It's technically easy for them and, um, it's also something they can feel really good about.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, fantastic. That's, um, that's really good. I think it's so necessary and I think you're really right about the The climate cell mix, because there's, um, yeah, some of the other days asked me a really detailed question about, um, you know, nuclear versus electrifying everything.

Mick Liubinskas
And I was like, yeah, yeah, I've read a lot of this. I know it all, but I'm such a generalist across this, but it gives me like, sometimes I go, Oh my goodness, I'm really worried about what's happening in Southeast Asia with data refinancing regulation. Like, oh, great. Janet footprint labs got the team got it.

Mick Liubinskas
Like that's sort of it. And then. Somebody else is working on this. And it's like, it's a, you feel buffeted by all these parts because it is so broad and there is no single solution. It's so interesting to hear everybody, um, working so hard and finding their own paths, which is, uh, which is, which is great.

Mick Liubinskas
And again, sitting here after, again, a great, tough year and feeling, um, the positivity, I think is really important. Obviously, this will come out. In 2025 early, um, but, uh, so, uh, hopefully we've, uh, we're, we're, we continue to grow. There's a lot of people who listen to these who are in either in non-climate jobs, or they've got ideas for doing something nature positive.

Mick Liubinskas
And then they might be thinking like, is this, like, how hard is it on the other side? How worthwhile is it? Like, should I, should I commit to this? You must meet people like that all the time. What do you say to people who are on the precipice of making a wonderful climate contribution, but maybe need a bit of a supportive nudge?

Janet Salem
Yeah, um, yeah, my husband's a case in point, actually. On our first date, so he was working in e commerce, you know, like selling, sell, sell, sell. Um, in our first date, he was talking about how he really wanted to do something that aligned with his values. Um, and I was like, stay where you are because you can do a lot with that.

Janet Salem
Anyway, we, we did get married and, and everything, but in the meantime, I was like, Hey, you know, the great thing about your role is you're in the product role in e commerce. So your job is to make solutions people want and to, you know, bridge between customer success and, um, engineering. So why don't you look at how to make circular economy work because the sustainability team is bogged down with reporting and.

Janet Salem
They're not, and they're under resourced, but your team has the designers, they have the, you know, the link to engineering, they have the link to, to customers. And so I got him a capstone student from, um, the University of Sydney where I was teaching here at Shea and, um, and she worked with the sustainability team to develop a circular economy strategy.

Janet Salem
And she now works there full time and they have a more ambitious. Circular strategy. They've got some solutions in place. Um, so all to say is, so you don't need to move into climate. You're actually, the main thing you can do where you are is ask the sustainability team. What do you need from me? Whether I'm an engineer, product, accounts, blah, blah, blah.

Janet Salem
Don't make, by the way, if you're in accounts. Stay there because don't make the sustainability team become carbon accountants. It's a waste of like their beautiful energy and time

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah,

Janet Salem
I think you know use the leverage you have where you are But at the end of the day, there's three things any of us can do for climate one is in do what you can within your professional role and Tell your managers and HR that you want to see the company doing more on sustainability and you want to do it.

Janet Salem
The second is, of course, consume sustainably as an individual. First thing you do is switch to a renewable electricity supplier. Renewable super clean super. And the third thing that's most important is to, to not only vote, but engage. So if you can find your, you know, your local state and federal representatives, just write them a note saying, please, no more coal, please, you know, stronger net zero, whatever you got to do, do it.

Janet Salem
Then I think those are the three things that anyone can do. Even without changing anything, like changing the job at all.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. And I, um, me being a total geek, I'd love your feedback on this, like as an extension to build on that. I was involved in the internet before it was in a browser. So text-based internet, and I was so excited about it.

Mick Liubinskas
And I spent so many years just wondering why everyone wasn't just jumping on board like I was. Um, and I think there's a bit of a parallel to this, which is when people jump into this and when you look under the bonnet and see the challenges. It's easy to be like, how does everybody not see and understand this?

Mick Liubinskas
Like how, how are you not like acting this straight away? But I think to your point around the, you know, we don't need every single person in the company to become sustainability experts. We need them to implement sustainable practices and there is a digital parallel, right? Like there's the people who are in procurement.

Mick Liubinskas
We're like going, Oh my God, the internet. Well, this is going to solve all my problems. But now most of them are in procurement with something that's digitized. And the point I'm trying to get your love, your feedback on at some point, climate and nature, even nature positive becomes normalized. We don't talk about it.

Mick Liubinskas
We don't have to have conferences because everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Like it's just, it's everywhere and everyone's doing it. Like, so is there, and obviously this is more regulation driven. Like the world's not, um, the world doesn't desperately need. Everyone to buy their pet food online. Um, but the, we, the world needs to go in this direction.

Mick Liubinskas
So we have this, this extra pressure, but also massively bigger change. But it feels like there are parallels to that kind of journey. Do you feel the same? That's, we've gotta get to the point of normalizing this.

Janet Salem
Yeah. I hundred percent agree. And that's why I think we've gotta look at what else.

Janet Salem
Normalized if maybe it's a business case, plus meeting regulations, right? That's a no brainer for any business. You need to make money and not get in trouble. And so rather than, I mean, we need to do everything. We need the salad and no one wants to eat the lettuce or drinks the sauce. So you got to combine it.

Janet Salem
But. The, the main thing is how do you make it a part of a business case? Well, that's where fiscal policy comes in and government procurement has to be a real driver because so much of our economy is, is to serve public goods and services. So I think like once you get public procurement, then you get the institutional procurement.

Janet Salem
So the universities,

Mick Liubinskas
um,

Janet Salem
et cetera, then, you know, Then, um, investors can then sort of ask, okay, well, we also want to see it now from, from the business that takes care of the business case, then all the experts in different, you know, you know, no climate person knows the intricacies of an apparel supply chain.

Janet Salem
So let them work it out.

Mick Liubinskas
Um,

Janet Salem
and then on the regulatory side, of course, like as part of reducing financial risk, you know, climate risk then becomes that. Financial risk, you know, disruption, um, or again, like some fees or whatever. So I, I, I say put, put climate into policies. And

Mick Liubinskas
then

Janet Salem
let the market do its thing.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah, I think that's right. As I was saying in another podcast recording that, um, I've seen sort of brilliant ideas and things that have come from leadership within bigger companies die in middle management because, um, they're, they've got to be implemented. They've got to be rolled out. They've got to work with incentives.

Mick Liubinskas
And I, and I think climate is the same, so I think it's got to be, it's just got to be. It's got to infiltrate everything and it comes down to just, I think it is economic benefit. We can't, we can't expect, you know, billions of people around the world. Most of them can't afford to do it or don't fully understand the science behind it to make better, better decisions for the, for the planet all the time to agree on your three points.

Mick Liubinskas
Like every single person that does. Makes their job positive and consumes better and engages better. Absolutely better. But, you know, I think certainly for us as entrepreneurs, the job is not to hope that everybody grows a conscience, but actually to make better products that are just economically better.

Mick Liubinskas
Uh, and, and then, then, then it's going to become, that's when I think it's going to just take off, right? When we, when we go past. When we go from a green premium to a green profit, that's going to be the big, big, big table.

Janet Salem
Yeah. I mean, the, the UN secretary general said we need everything everywhere all at once.

Janet Salem
So we don't really have time for the voluntary approach anymore. Um, so they also saying climate change is winning slowly is the same as losing. So we need these kind of rapid things that can, can really cause an inflection point. That's why I think FinTech is, is really powerful because it has that speed.

Janet Salem
Um, and then, you know, let them handle all that, the intricacies of like getting into the data and the banking and everything, they're already good at that. We can just layer in what we, what we have.

Mick Liubinskas
So Janet, let's, let's take a minute and, um, think about you and I get, um, I try not to read the comments, but both from family and friends, and we're coming up to the holiday period where we're going to take, um, people are going to cop some of these, these questions.

Mick Liubinskas
Um, let's go to the controversial stuff. Let's deal with that hard stuff of that. We're going to face over the dinner table. So the first one, oh, carbon footprint, it was made by the fossil fuel industry to put the blame on individuals that doesn't actually add up and, and my, my little, my little bit. Is a fraction of an 8 billion people, it doesn't matter.

Mick Liubinskas
What do you say to that?

Janet Salem
Yeah. So the carbon footprint, um, the scope three emissions, they're right in the sense that your scope three emissions or your carbon footprint is someone else's scope one emissions. And shouldn't they just handle it, right? They should just decarbonize what they're physically emitting to the atmosphere.

Janet Salem
And I, I actually agree with them. That would be wonderful. But the thing is, if we wait for that. It takes too long. And a lot of that supply side, they're saying, Oh, well, people want this and they want it at a certain price. They want it, you know, so we're just doing what the market's asking for. And that's where the carbon footprint comes in.

Janet Salem
It says, Okay, uh, if you want to then flip it. Why don't we reassign all those scope one emissions to the end point of the value chain. So that if, you know, in a cup of coffee, that would be about, you know, five kilos of carbon. And, and you say, okay, so now, you know, as the final consumer, what are the emissions that you've driven with your purchase?

Janet Salem
Or as a business, by the way, it can also be, you know, depending on which coffee beans you've chosen, whether it's a cup. Now this is what's happened because you are supposedly driving demand. What are you going to do about it? Okay. So it just opens up that option for both of them to have the transparency to know.

Janet Salem
What the connection is to climate change and what they could do. So obviously the scope three person would say, well, maybe I can choose something that has a lower carbon and I support that supply chain, but let's just say, let's just say that both of them take action. So you've got the scope one person producing the emissions and your scope three consuming the end product and they both take action.

Janet Salem
Um, and we are now double counting. Ooh, is that so bad? I mean, because the rate of action is only, you know, the opt in rate is only about 4%. So if everyone double counted, then we're only going to get to 8 percent anyway.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
So all we do is get there twice as quick. So to me, I think that double counting, it's just a win.

Janet Salem
And it doesn't say that the scope one person's not responsible.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. I think it's the reality of it, right? Which is that, um, you can't just go and buy a bad product. Or sell it to in a bad way and go, well, I, all I did was, you know, I was just the drug dealer. Like I didn't make the drugs. I didn't consume the drugs.

Mick Liubinskas
Like, it's like, I just shipped it from here to here. You're like, everyone's going to take response. Like what we've created in this complex world, as you said, about 250 kilogram stuff per day. Like it's, no one actually could do that per day. Like it's actually the productivity of the world and it's globalization, which has made that possible.

Mick Liubinskas
So we've got to, we've got to kind of unpick that and go, gee, we've, we've, That's been amazing for us being able to get stuff, but actually it's come at the cost of the environment. Yeah, now we have to measure it everywhere until it all goes down and I agree. I don't I don't care I didn't care particularly about like greenwashing because I think it's just the, it's the step along the way.

Mick Liubinskas
Obviously it's not enough, but it's like, okay, we're going to try to do better. Great. Now we need to measure. Great. Now we need to work out what to do. Great. Now we need to act. Great. Now we need to keep acting. And, and it's going to take 10 years, but we're changing 200, 200 years of, of, of Developed infrastructure, um, in, in a very short period of time.

Mick Liubinskas
So I think I agree. I think that it's not going to be clinical and perfect. We, that's, that's the reality. We just got to push through that.

Janet Salem
Yeah. And another analogy is, you know, if, if you were told you were diabetic or something, so there's a problem, right? Would you, as an individual then say, well, it's the responsibility of the food producers.

Janet Salem
Um, they're putting too much sugar into the food. So, you know, we need them to really take action.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
You wouldn't really, you'd be like, okay, well, what can I buy that's a little bit lower calorie or low sugar, or that's still got all those other nutrients I need. So there is a balance. Like, yeah, there is way too much sugar in a lot of our food, but at the same time, if there's a problem, we can also take some steps to, to address it.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah. And I agree. I think I believe in market forces, but I don't think market forces aren't going to lead us. Like it just doesn't have a good enough moral compass that works fast enough to help the environment. Like, I absolutely think the consumers of climate positive products has gone from super niche to big enough to care.

Mick Liubinskas
And that's, that's like, I agree. It's the combination of factors, right? Like if. If they can keep serving up cheap soft drinks that have lots of sugar in it with water and carbonate and chemicals, and everyone's drinking and they make a profit and there's no regulation, they're not going to change. But if everyone's like, why are people drinking more soda water or just more water or like, Oh my goodness.

Mick Liubinskas
Like the adjustment will come. But yeah, I think feeling empowered about that. We need all of that. Like we, as you said, everything, everywhere all at once before.

Janet Salem
Yeah. But can I, like another climate salad. Remember, it's sort of very relevant, so I just pick, pick them for it as a good example. So refilled, right?

Janet Salem
So you say, okay, oh, why should I make healthier drinks? You know, why is there so much, so many unhealthy drinks? I just need something to drink. Um, and oh, it should be like, there should be something where it like plugs into the wall and you know, it's just like a soda stream and then, you know, you add a little bit of flavor or something.

Janet Salem
Like, why can't they do that? You know, you always hear, why can't they just? So then refilled comes along, they have this beautiful vending machine that plugs into your existing water system. And they're like, yeah, actually, you don't really need to truck around water from the other side of the planet, you can use what you have here.

Janet Salem
And then the machine can carbonize, it can add vitamins, it can add, um, you know, nice flavors and those can, you can change them in and out all the time. And then you can even bring your own cup, you know, or bottle and fill. On the spot solution, like, you know, they're like, Hey, we've done it. And, and they're extremely intelligent people.

Janet Salem
They could be doing something at like KPMG or Deloitte or getting really well paid elsewhere. Right. Instead, they're like becoming an entrepreneur. So great. We have the solution, but then the problem is like, we're, we're discussing, um, at a nearby location. The problem is that they, you know, Coca Cola wants an exclusivity deal for their vending machines and the pricing structure, what they're used to paying is different.

Janet Salem
Like they're not used to the idea that you'd need to lease a vending machine. And so, you know, we say that circular economy is this 4 trillion opportunity, but in the reality, so there's so much that's sort of stacked up against. These solutions that they have to try to fit into this, um, very linear economy mold and still make it work.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
When even in the reality, it's that solution is cheaper, it's healthier, it's better for the planet.

Mick Liubinskas
Yeah.

Janet Salem
But as long as we're not paying for the waste. Of all those bottles or the, you know, the traffic that that's being contributed to the roads to truck them around and, you know, there's so many things that larger corporates that are decades old have worked out really hard for the solutions to compete in the market, unless we change the market.

Mick Liubinskas
I think that's a thing and study, right? And again, it goes back to the point that we need tens of thousands of new products and whole new industries and we need everything to change a little bit. And it's the other big thing, the big controversial question I get after I dig in a little bit is, is that, Oh, you want us to go back to the stone age?

Mick Liubinskas
And it's like, absolutely not. Like I love the world of living. I'm massively privileged. I recognize that. But. I want me to continue traveling and my family to be able to travel around the world. Let's just make sustainable aviation fuel. Like, I love eating and trying new foods. Like, let's do sustainable agriculture.

Mick Liubinskas
Like, we just, we're not talking about getting rid of the good things in life. We're just changing them so they're climate positive. And I think there is no excuse not to like we, um, it's not like the, it's, it's actually impossible. We just need to do it in slightly different ways. Um, and actually I think it should lead to, um, more energy, like cleaner, cheaper energy, like cleaner air, cleaner water, quieter, like everything should get better.

Mick Liubinskas
But we're on the hard side of that equation, right? We have still got all that work to do to get, to finally get there.

Janet Salem
But this is when, this is when nudge theory has done the work for us. So we know if we want people to change behavior, it's got to be, it's got to be easy. It's got to be attractive. It's got to be social as in, you've got to see it being a social norm and it's got to be timely.

Janet Salem
And it's actually interesting to see nudge theory enter into, um, innovative policy. So the New South Wales government actually funded a reality TV show called Renovate or Rebuild. And it was like this, you know, all the juicy things you want, the makeover of the old show, old house. And do we renovate it or do we knock it down and rebuild?

Janet Salem
But what they have trojan horsed into it using behavioral insights is both options only present sustainable solutions,

Mick Liubinskas
but

Janet Salem
they never talk about sustainability. So they talk about low energy bills. They talk about natural light. They talk about comfort, um, and you know, you'll never have to go to a petrol station again, like, you know, these things that are desirable, um, and without saying it's an environment tool.

Janet Salem
Option. Yeah. 'cause that just does not, that just doesn't convert a customer.

Mick Liubinskas
Agree. It's a really loaded, right. I think it has the pressure. Um, I think it's, you know, common side was supposed to be a newsletter, but I, I think, I think in terms of like climate tech and climate solutions, I think it's actually just it's solutions.

Mick Liubinskas
It's better products. It's like, it's, it's focusing on that the other side, so. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Well, work, work to be done, but I'm glad that we've got such so many amazing people working on those solutions.

Janet Salem
Yeah. And we're getting better. We're environmentalists are getting better. We're not asking for compromise as much.

Janet Salem
We're asking for something that's better. So that's all the journey.

Mick Liubinskas
Thank you so much for sharing. So excited about how far you've come this year and how big next year looks for you and the team. I'm really excited. How do people find out more about you and Footprint Lab?

Janet Salem
Yeah, you could just start Google Footprint Lab, find me on LinkedIn or FootprintLab.io and get in contact. And yeah, hopefully this time next year, you're going to know the carbon footprint of everything you pay for in a business as an individual and, um, yeah, you'll know where to go for a better option.

Mick Liubinskas
It's a really great finishing point. You know, three years ago, we ran the first ever climate tech meetup in Sydney and um, events and awards and you know, had 150 people.

Mick Liubinskas
And then we've grown that year and year and year, just now up to 700 companies and um, it's just incredible to see the momentum we've got. Again, I don't think 2025 is going to solve it all. We're going to have it done, but it's just another important step forward. Um, and I think we're building momentum as we go.

Janet Salem
Well, inspired by, I'm just gonna add a fourth thing that everyone can do, which is be like me, support people with a good idea or a good solution, whether that's in your company, it's a policymaker, um, or an entrepreneur, like just reach out and say, Hey, I like what you're doing. Just a little, some support, I think is always.

Janet Salem
Um, really good. We're not all going to get it perfectly right, but let's get to the positive and see what we can do. I

Mick Liubinskas
totally agree with you. And I know there's been, uh, you know, some negative people have put on in terms of carbon footprint that it came from, um, groups trying to sort of put the blame on other people.

Mick Liubinskas
And I, and I, I get that, but I also think that we underestimate our power, uh, our, you know, our power, as you said, as consumers, but as employees. Our power as voters, our power as investors, whether it's banking or super, uh, and just that tiny little bit of effort and support, like every, every decision that every individual makes, um, that is, that goes from being climate negative, climate positive.

Mick Liubinskas
Just starts nudging us more and more in that direction. And I, you can, you can genuinely feel that momentum building. Like, and it's not everybody and it doesn't need to be, but it's every year it's more and more and more. Um, and that's what gets me excited about 2025. So Janet, again, thanks so much for sharing.

Mick Liubinskas
Love your work and, um, excite us into 2025.

Janet Salem
Great. Yeah. Thank you.