Adam Spencer: Hi, I'm Adam Spencer and welcome to day one, the podcast that spotlights Australian startups, founders, and the organizations that empower Australian entrepreneurship. We go back to the beginning to tell the story of Australia's most inspiring founders and how they built their companies. You're listening to a special interview series as part of a documentary W2D1.

Adam Spencer: Is producing about the history of the Australian startup ecosystem on the episode.

Alfred Lo: Today we have, hi, I'm Alfred Lowe. I'm one of the co founders of an alternative protein startup here in Sydney, uh, Harvest Bee. I've been involved with the Australian startup scene for. Better part of over a decade now, maybe 12 years.

Alfred Lo: Um, a lot of people know me as a venture capitalist. I was, I used to run Optus's venture capital fund and, um, A and P's venture capital fund. Prior to that, I was actually a software founder. I've jumped back onto the operator side of things with Harvest B, but better part of 10 years in investing both, uh, institutionally and also as an angel

Adam Spencer: investor, a small time angel investor.

Adam Spencer: What was the motivation or thing

Adam Spencer: that pushed you to jump back from the venture capital or investing side of things to become a founder again?

Alfred Lo: I think, um, I'm really proud of the work that I did as an investor and the, um, being part of the, what is a very new industry of venture capitalists. Um, for me, it was a, a juncture in my career after I was actually my last role before Harvest Beer was as a chief investment officer at Cicada Innovations, which is a deep tech incubator.

Alfred Lo: When I left there in 2019, I thought about, could I do more work as an investor or could I jump back in the operator's seat to work on something that I really enjoy and really, um, I think will have a profound impact to, um, the economy and, um, I can look back on as, uh, being really proud of and given what's happening with, you know, Climate and sustainability, alternative proteins was something, an area which I thought the skills and experiences I have be able to gain as an investor would really be well placed in doing something in this space, that's why I founded Harvest Bee.

Adam Spencer: So I'm sure we'll talk more about Harvest Bee in, you know, the next half an hour. When would you say You first got involved, like, what was your first exposure to the Australian start up ecosystem?

Alfred Lo: Hmm, it's interesting, I, I, um, I finished my MBA at, um, AGSM in 2004, and I'd come back from, uh, international exchange at NYU, Stern Business School, and I, a lot of people doing MBAs, they'd want to go off and join a big consulting firm like BCG or McKinsey, I, um, I really wanted to join the tech scene, um, actually as a VC.

Alfred Lo: But, uh, 2004, 2005 wasn't really, you wouldn't call it the heyday of Australian venture capital. Um, it was, it was a wasteland. Um, you, to, to, to, uh, not pull punches. It was really a vacant period in the Australian tech scene. We were still reeling from the dot com, uh, blow up from 2000 and, uh, 2000, 2001. There were very few start ups, tech start ups that you could really call.

Alfred Lo: There was so, certainly not really any investment scene. And that was probably my first foray into trying to get into the tech scene. Um, some 15 odd years ago, I started actually, instead of getting to a job in VC, I, uh, I got into an operator role running a climate tech water purification business.

Adam Spencer: When you say you didn't want to, you know, follow that kind of, I guess, traditional path to a consulting firm after your MBA and get into the tech scene, why?

Adam Spencer: What attracted you to the tech scene?

Alfred Lo: Well, I think I've I, I traditionally used to come from big corporate. I, I spent six years at PwC. Um, cut my teeth there as a cadet. I'm a chartered accountant by training. Had a lot of clients in the big end of town. But I, I, you know, I, uh, I think those industries and those firms are really important.

Alfred Lo: But, um, I mean, I've always had a real technology bent to, to myself. I, I, I majored in information systems back in my undergraduate. I've always loved technology. It's come easy for me. And I was naturally seeing the things that are happening overseas in Silicon Valley and frustrated that why isn't it happening here?

Alfred Lo: I think trying to get involved, trying to build something here, um, play a small part. I think you need people to start doing things locally for us to build into a community. Um, I mean, I'm fascinated by the speed of things that happen in tech. Um, the, the, I'm a very curious person and, um, I think there's wonderful things that happen.

Alfred Lo: Uh, that I created in, in, in our tech community and in our tech ecosystem. Generally creating better futures and better, better standards of living for everyone. So, that's why I wanted to build a career in tech.

Adam Spencer: Hmm. I think you said, was it 2004, 2005, um, when you entered the scene and as you, as you described it, this barren wasteland reeling from the, uh, 2000, 2001 crash.

Adam Spencer: What, what do you think, was it just that dot com, uh, bust that destroyed the investment scene in the Australian startup ecosystem or, I mean, it didn't really exist at that point?

Alfred Lo: Yeah, I mean, there was, I think even the current, I guess, generation of VCs when they started, um, I'm talking about the ones that started in early 2010s, they really struggled with the scar tissue of Um, there were Australian funds, so Australian institutional investors, um, in the tech scene, the Australian tech scene, and the global tech scene.

Alfred Lo: But, um, certainly, I think the, the view was that the Australian fund managers from that dot com period didn't return capital and there were a lot of front page disasters that happened in Australian tech and, um, that, that memory was lost. Very profound. I mean, the impact of that happening, but it was a different time.

Alfred Lo: Australian tech scene was a very, was structurally very different then to what we've built now in this, this era.

Adam Spencer: Yeah. Can you name a couple of those front page disasters?

Alfred Lo: Oh, uh, I think LookSmart was, was one that sort of burnt bright and then crashed. Look, I, you can really put on one hand the survivors of that era, the Australian survivors on that era.

Alfred Lo: They were maybe not even on one hand. I mean, a sausage software was another one that burnt bright and then, then sort of went, you know, didn't, didn't go anywhere. I think it was the marketplace businesses that did really well. So realestate. com, carsells. com. And seek. Um, they classically took what around the world was happening.

Alfred Lo: Um, they classified businesses and put them on online. That was happening the world over. And, and they're, they've survived and they've not just survived. They've, they've gone on to be real pillars for the Australian tech scene. But yeah, I can't really name many after that. There's a, there's a country mile between those winners and, and everyone else.

Adam Spencer: What, what time frame are we in right now? Are we still around the 2005s? Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you think happened? Was it just those kind of case studies that people pointed towards to kind of start kicking off venture, the venture capital asset class again? Like to really start getting it going? Or was it not until the 2010s when it really started to get going?

Alfred Lo: Yeah, it really, you had a few players, uh, pop up and, um, total respect to them. But really delivering outperformance numbers, I don't think really any of them did that. Um, and it would be hard pressed for me to say that, for anyone to say that there was a, there was an industry. Um, there wasn't a VC industry in Australia, uh, in that period of time.

Alfred Lo: There were a few players around, I think Southern Cross Ventures, Starfish. Um, there were a couple of others, but frankly, there weren't that many startups to invest in. So, um, not certainly when you compare it to 2021, it's, uh, it's unrecognizable. It's so different.

Adam Spencer: 2005, you, you were in Sydney in 2005. Is that right?

Adam Spencer: I was, yes. Talking about the startup community in general, like if we can, You know, if that existed at all, like, could you see any kind of grassroots kind of movements, community?

Alfred Lo: I mean, at the time I was head deep in, in working in the business I was in, uh, which is, as I was mentioning before, was a deep tech company working in, uh, water purification technology.

Alfred Lo: I mean, I didn't even think of it as a startup, but it was. There wasn't really community. There were no, certainly you wouldn't read anything in the newspapers about startups or tech. It was something cute. It was not

Adam Spencer: treated seriously. When did you start to notice something resembling a community emerge?

Alfred Lo: Yeah, it's interesting. I think the later in that decade, um, started to, uh, 2008, 9, 10, around then, you started to see a change. Um, you know, we'd gone through the GFC, uh, time. I think, uh, whenever there's a economic crisis, it generally happens, it tends to correlate to, you know, Something happening in tech. An opportunity, generally, happening in tech.

Alfred Lo: I think around that period of time, it was the advent of the, you know, iPhone as well. I think that, um, changed the game a little bit more. I think mobile networks, ubiquity of broadband connectivity brought change as well. And what I mean by that, I think it has democratized a lot of access. Distribution of apps, price points changed.

Alfred Lo: You could be a software developer anywhere and be a hit on the app store and then, you know, go big. Uh, you didn't have to be in the valley. But I started to see locally in Australia, I think there, there did start to become, uh, people coming together, community forming. You had, um, folks like Phil Maul and Mick Lubinskis at, uh, Polonise at the time, being early pioneers, being a start up, um, sort of studio.

Alfred Lo: You also had the folks at Blue Chilli doing their thing. You start to see emergence of people coming together. I remember after leaving that deep tech startup, I had a software startup and we, I would used to go to these things called jellies. I don't even know if they're still happening around, but it would be people that.

Alfred Lo: Would often individual folks are working on their own, on their own thing, or maybe they're a developer contracting out, and they would, rather than working from home, they would go to someone to offer up their office and, uh, for the day and you'd hold the jelly there, they'd, they'd, you'd co work together then.

Alfred Lo: Because don't forget, at the time, there were no co working spaces. And there weren't really co working spaces until 2011. So, I think that was a real point of inflection for our community. When we started to have places to come together, physical places to come together regularly.

Adam Spencer: Have you had much exposure to innovation or startup ecosystems in other parts of the world?

Alfred Lo: Um, yeah, I've spent a bit of time in America. I spent a lot of time when I was with Optus, with Singtel Innovate, um, their corporate venture capital fund. I spent a lot of time in Southeast Asia in the tech scenes, um, in the Philippines and Indonesia and Singapore and Thailand. So yeah, I have, I have, I've spent a bit of time seeing other

Adam Spencer: communities.

Adam Spencer: You know, drawing on that, is there anything you can point to that makes our ecosystem stand out, like a unique difference or a unique advantage? Um,

Alfred Lo: uh, all ecosystems are very different. The Australian one, how can I say we're different? We bring a different Australian flavour to it. For the good and the bad.

Alfred Lo: The classic Australian, not too serious. Attitude, she'll be right attitude in the mateship aspect. We, we also suffer from some Australian traits of ours. We're often not ambitious enough. Uh, we're often, we're not classically the best sales people. We're not like pushy. Like you might say that the Americans are not pushy, but you know what I mean?

Alfred Lo: Like the salesmanship, we can, we can push harder there. Um, and we sometimes suffer a little bit of, um, being safe on our own shores, not pushing out overseas. A bit of the Goldilocks, you know, not too small, yeah, that has, the market's not too small that you have to go out, and it's not too big, um, either, it's just right.

Alfred Lo: And um, I think that's a, probably a comment on the whole Australian economy. But, um, yeah, the Australian start up scene is, we've been able to develop a real product focus. Um, excellence, I think, compared to the rest of the world. I think we're, we, we, in, in the, in the time that, you know, the 20 years of our ecosystem being around, been able to show that.

Alfred Lo: We know how to build a great product. You can point at Atlassian and Canva are great examples of that. And every, every, every ecosystem is a little bit different. And they've got those strengths and

Adam Spencer: weaknesses. Um, yeah, talking about weaknesses in present day now, are there any gaps that you, um, can see today?

Adam Spencer: Like things that you would like to see improved on?

Adam Spencer: Yeah,

Alfred Lo: yeah. Well, there's, there's, there's, There's always gaps. It doesn't matter which market it is. Um, I think that even if you're in the valley, you get the gaps. But I think the things that around seed capital that we need to, we could get improve on.

Alfred Lo: We've had a real run on investors. Um, I think money being put into the asset class of venture capital, early stage tech investment, which is really great. But I think, um, We, you know, we're going from, you think about in 2012, then you, you probably had funds under management, less than a hundred million dollars, probably even under 50 million.

Alfred Lo: And now we're in the billions of dollars in 10 years time. That's, that's amazing. You know, that's, and that's great. But I think a lot of that capital is highly concentrated now. We've got a few funds hold most of the funds under management. And there's, there's like an increasing gap between. The next tier below.

Alfred Lo: And I think part of a healthy ecosystem is a, is a good spread of risk capital amongst multiple managers. I hope that we'll see that happen. I think there's also still challenges that we have with, um, deep tech innovations and getting funding, uh, in this country. I think getting software investment is much easier these days.

Alfred Lo: Um, and much better understood by the investor community compared to science and deep tech related and potentially more capital intensive, uh, spaces, which are still venture backable, but just not well understood by this, by, you know, by investors. They're just, they're just two examples of, of gaps, I, I think, I think we talk a lot about Australian founders needing to level up, be more ambitious.

Alfred Lo: I think the last 10 years we've gone to show that, that's happened. But I think what's probably not often spoken about is the counterpoint. I think we need better investors too. And I say that being a former investor as well. From a former investors perspective. I think there's not enough spoken about, you know, the caliber of investors.

Alfred Lo: How do they get better? How do we create better? Investors in this country that understand risk understand spaces.

Adam Spencer: Yeah, I wanted to ask you that. How do we do that? It's a great

Alfred Lo: question. I think I think it takes time to, to build, I think, and it takes a curious mind, and if you're a VC, you should be a curious thinker.

Alfred Lo: But I think it is, um, there's no, there's no prescription on how to do that. I think a lot of it comes with, you know, experience, like doing things. I think we're going to get more, um, depth in the types of people getting into VC. That bring their body of work, their body of experience to that role. You know, at the moment we generally have a, we have a generation of generalist investors.

Alfred Lo: As opposed to investors which have deep, you know, domain expertise in one particular thing. And that's because the market has been quite, it's been too thin to, to create that depth of subject matter expertise. You know, you, it generally comes over time, you, you, as, as your, as your market increases, your economy increases.

Alfred Lo: The niche has become big enough for one person to become really good at, to really know something. And I think we're getting to that point with the Australian tech scene where we're not just some cottage industry, we are an ambitious industry with a lot of plays and a lot of sophistication. And we're attracting more international people as well to our community, which only accelerates our level of knowledge and sophistication.

Alfred Lo: Um, it's in, you know, I think that's probably the The single most thing that will accelerate our ecosystem is how we get more surface area with international founders or investors that will only improve our, our, um, how we do things better.

Adam Spencer: Do you have any, um, unpopular opinions about the ecosystem?

Adam Spencer: Something that you firmly believe, but people just aren't on the same page with you about?

Alfred Lo: Um, I have an unpopular opinion, which I don't know whether people disagree with it, but, Often unpopular opinions of things that people don't talk about. I think one that comes to mind is there are too many deep tech founders that optimize for grants rather than investors.

Alfred Lo: I think we have a generation of, we've always had really great. academics and researchers and deep tech minds in this country. We punch well above our weight in that space. And we talk about how we suffer from not being able to commercialize technology. And it's true, right? And, but you know, in my time in deep tech, I've, I've, you know, I spent over two years at Cicada Innovations.

Alfred Lo: Um, I saw, I met a lot of um, entrepreneurial, let's say entrepreneurial deep tech founders that, you know, a lot of them were optimising for grants rather than investors and I, I think we really miss a trick there and it's, it's a real cultural, It'll take some time to change that but um, you compare it to other markets around the world where deep tech gets well funded.

Alfred Lo: Australia really started to see a shift. struggles in that respect and I don't just it's not just the founders side of things I think is a there's still a market failing in the investment side of things to fund these types of these types of opportunities and types of businesses because It's not well understood and it goes back to you know The the depth of understanding from the investor's side of things but the risk capital probably isn't there There's a market failure where there's a market failures.

Alfred Lo: There's that's where the government steps in with with um, You I feel like grants are really important for our tech community. Um, I think the R& D Tax Incentive is a wonderful and very important pillar to what the government does. But yeah, in terms of deep tech, I think I see too many founders optimising for good.

Alfred Lo: being commercial and speaking to the investment opportunity.

Adam Spencer: What role

Alfred Lo: do you think government should play in the ecosystem? Um, that's quite a contentious question. It's one I, I kind of envy a policy maker on how to do it because you sort of, They get sort of clipped over the ear if they do too much or do too little.

Alfred Lo: I think the policy setting needs to be

Adam Spencer: right. Some people say, you know, they need to be at arm's length and really not have much to do with it at all and, and other people kind of congratulate, you know, what they've done.

Alfred Lo: Yeah, I think it's a, it's a misnomer to say that, um, Government shouldn't get involved.

Alfred Lo: You look at the founding of, you know, tech Mecca, the Silicon Valley, that was, there was a lot of government involved in the formation of that sector. 50 odd years ago, you look at Israel and their startup nation. If it wasn't for government policy and their intervention, It wouldn't be what it is today.

Alfred Lo: You know, Singapore's the same. Different to Israel, but you know, they have a tech scene, it's highly, the government gets highly involved. Um, that's not to say it's all good. I think government It needs to try things, but it also needs to stop doing things that don't work. And if you can adopt a mentality kind of like what start ups do, you know, make decisions, try things, find out if they experiment, if they fail, stop it.

Alfred Lo: Try something else. If it works, great, keep on doing it, right? I think governments and the bureaucracy find it hard to work on that cadence. To be able to admit that something's wrong, but also to change policy quickly. Um, and I think that's part of why there's always friction. Because startups move so fast.

Alfred Lo: And, you know, an individual firm, an individual startup moves so fast. Therefore, the community moves so quickly. Um, and you can say that about the Australian industry. It's unrecognizable. From what it was in 2011 to what it is in 2021 compared to any other sector. Talk about mining, banking, telco, you know, they're all pretty much the same industries, but ours is so unrecognizable and you need to move quickly to keep up with it.

Alfred Lo: Right. So I think government. will always lag and that's part of the challenge. How can they help more? I'm a big proponent of at the core of it is human beings. Startups are the embodiment of the knowledge worker and we need to get the best minds in this country. We need to develop them and we need to bring them in.

Alfred Lo: And I think we have great educational institutions and we develop really great skills. We, it's a big industry, uh, has been a big industry for Australia, education, but we need to bring in more talent. I think that's one thing government could do, um, it's again, it's one of those topics which has been politicized, but I, I wish we would, um, really go hard on being a brain magnet for, for the best brains in the world.

Adam Spencer: Australia can, has a lot to offer.

Adam Spencer: Well, in your opinion, what needs to happen next

Adam Spencer: to get us to the next, you know, that next tier to keep building this ecosystem?

Alfred Lo: Yeah, I think, I think we're still, we haven't got a full cycle yet, Adam, you know, and what is a full cycle? I think if you, if you say 2011, 12, 13 was the beginning of this cycle, and if you, if you parlay that to a venture fund's 10 year fund life.

Alfred Lo: So, the beginning of the fund, you take the money in from your investors and you invest it, you invest it in startups, they build, they have 10 years or whatever. You know, five to 10 years to build something significant and the exit, the company exits through IPO or trade sale and the money goes back to, uh, returns back to the venture fund and that gets returned back to, um, its investors and the cycle goes around again.

Alfred Lo: We're sort of only getting to that, that first end of the cycle now. If you think about it, right? You're talking about the vintages of funds of 2012 13 like Blackbird. Blackbird's first fund. You're talking about, you know, Airtree 2013 14, Square Peg, around the time, same time. And we've been really blessed, I was going to say the word lucky, but it definitely is luck, luck involved.

Alfred Lo: But it's, it's right time, luck, skill, all of it mixed together. But we, we, those funds, that vintage, those Australian funds have been bumper funds. They're, they're world class. And that will, that will mean that, um, they'll return capital to the LPs, their investors. It's a flywheel. So we, hopefully we'll see more capital come back into the market and a different, a different options to get capital for, for founders.

Alfred Lo: And with, with that return of capital, you'll get more confidence and conviction of asset class. Both by angel investors, but also institutional investors and the super funds endowment funds that that this is an asset class That's worth backing and we're talking about small tiny allocations from their total assets under management like well less than a percent which is still Lots of money right and that I mean not money doesn't solve everything Certainly doesn't but it is a it is the lifeblood of this industry And it will keep, keep that flywheel going.

Alfred Lo: And I think that's what I mean. We haven't sort of seen that cycle finish. I think there's more things that we need to figure out. I think, uh, our share market and how we list companies, where we list our companies, uh, is something that's not quite solved, resolved yet. Do you, do you list on the ASX? Do you list globally?

Alfred Lo: I think corporate acquisitions. Hasn't really been resolved yet in Australia. Australian, I think one thing that's really not well understood is that it's important that not everyone's going to be a unicorn, a decacorn. Not everyone's going to listen to NASDAQ. You don't need to, you don't need to, to be successful.

Alfred Lo: Um, and we need more exits for founders and, uh, and if we could sell these, they can exit to local companies. I think that would be super valuable, uh, but we don't really see much of that. Australian corporates don't really have a very acquisitive in tech, and I think it's reflective of the Australian stock market.

Alfred Lo: It's ASX 20, it's, it's very stale, stagnant. There's very few companies. in the SX20 that are new companies or tech companies. Um, when you compare it to other markets, you know, we're still full of resource companies or banks. I think that's something I think government needs to look at. I know that the Australian tech community is always going to be pushing to be a bigger part of Australian economic mix.

Alfred Lo: And, uh, hopefully one day we'll see a lot of new coming startups make that ASX 20. What advice would you give a brand new founder? Um, as a founder, as a entrepreneur, you only have three things to do. Actually just three things to sell. You have product that you have to sell. You have to find customers. You have stock to sell, equity to sell to investors.

Alfred Lo: So you have to pitch that, pitch to be an attractive investment opportunity for, for investors to buy your stock. And the third thing that you have to sell is vision. And that's to get employees to get the best people to work for you. If you can simplify How you think as a founder, as an entrepreneur, there's only three things that you have to sell.

Alfred Lo: You're the, you're the number one salesperson and every day you're selling one of those, well hopefully all three of those things. Everything you should be doing should be focused around selling those three things.

Adam Spencer: What I'm trying to do here is to tell a story in the most holistic and truthful way possible.

Adam Spencer: I want to catalog the history of the Australian start up ecosystem, keeping in mind now that we want founders, investors, policy makers, academics, people from all corners of this community to hear this story. What's something that you think about constantly or that these that people need to hear from you?

Adam Spencer: Um,

Alfred Lo: I think I think there's so much we have to do. We need more people involved in the startup ecosystem with the right attitude, the right culture. It's so important that we bring people in, collaborate and, and build businesses and build, build hopefully what will be their legacy, but build it the right way.

Alfred Lo: You know, a good friend of mine who I used to work with, uh, Peter Huynh from Qualgro, said to me many years ago, and I've said it to many people since, like, it's not what you do, but how you do it. It's so important. We can build a teching ecosystem, but we do it the wrong way, with the wrong, um, culture, and that does happen in certain ecosystems.

Alfred Lo: We build this bad culture. One thing we started to say at start, mate, you know, Culture eats strategy for a breakfast, right? You know, you have to build it in the right manner. I think we've been so fortunate that we've had really good leaders and trailblazers in our ecosystem that have, by and large, done it the right way.

Alfred Lo: You know, been inclusive. And it's not to say they're perfect. We're not perfect, but we, you know, we, and it's not to say there hasn't been things that have been called out about how our ecosystem, the, the, the things that were wrong about it and, um, how we go about addressing it. But I, I'm very proud of the tech ecosystem we have built to date in Australia.

Alfred Lo: And I'm, I'm, I'm super proud that I've been part of it. And. I'm, I'm one of a, you know, a chorus of people and there's more and more people getting involved every day. It's, it's, it's, it's an industry of choice, I'd say, for graduates to go into. And that certainly wasn't the case when I graduated from, from university.

Alfred Lo: And that, to me, means that we're doing a good job. We are building an industry from scratch. It doesn't happen often, ever, in any nation. You know, all the industries that we know today in Australia, they've come before us. They've been around. But the tech industry by and large wasn't vastly different. And if, if it even, if you can call it existent prior to, you know, this generation, it was very different.

Alfred Lo: And we have this opportunity to, to mold it into one that. Is the way that we want to work, but also one that's gonna hopefully be bigger than mining and resources or, or banking and finance. Hopefully it's becomes one of our biggest exports for this country has ever seen. That's why it's vitally important, how we we do things, how we, how we treat each other, um, how we set ambition, how we play, um, how we collaborate.

Alfred Lo: I think those things are, it's nothing. With this stuff is written down. There's no formula for it. We have to make, make it up as we go, but it's, it's one of those things. If you'd get wrong, it's, it's quite insidious. It will be, it can be the death of anything that's good. And, um, I think, I think we, we are, we have, we're very lucky to have, have, um, I feel like the Australian tech scenes in, in, in good hands.

Alfred Lo: But it, it requires a lot of hard work and consistent work. Nothing's for granted. Nothing should, nothing should be taken for granted in that respect. But yeah, hopefully we're creating, we we're, we're tracking the best minds and the most ambitious minds and most curious minds to work on the most audacious problems to solve.

Alfred Lo: And Australia, oh, and probably the world has to benefit from that 'cause we can bring to life amazing innovations.

Adam Spencer: I hope you enjoyed that

Adam Spencer: interview. More interviews are on the way. Follow the podcast wherever you're listening right now. Stay tuned for more interviews with many, many more amazing people from the Australian startup ecosystem. Thanks for listening and see you next time.