As an Indigenous business executive and social activist, Tanya Hosch is no stranger to being the ‘first’ and ‘only’ in some of Australia’s most prominent boardrooms. And if there’s one thing she wants you to know, it’s to lead with authenticity.
In this final episode of You're in Charge Season 1, Tanya and Sav dive deep into the tolls and triumphs of being a trailblazer in any industry. From experiencing invisible barriers, to building a network of people who will give it to you straight, Tanya gives listeners a masterclass in leadership.
You’re in Charge is brought to you by ThincHer, an initiative of ThincLab at The University of Adelaide.
Transcript Search or select a timestamp to jump ▾ 0:02 Tanya Hosch: I've been surprised when I've been in conversations, particularly about racism, and I've been in a conversation in a room or online with a group of white men and they haven't invited me into the conversation to speak. Now, I'm never sort of massively affronted by that because I guess I'm not surprised by it. But at the same time, I'll wait for enough space to say what I believe needs to be said. 0:39 Sav Perera: Hello and welcome to You're In Charge, where we are helping you with starting your business journey by sharing stories and insights from the best in the biz. My name is Sal Pereira, and you may know me from MasterChef Australia and just A few months ago, I decided to leave my corporate job and go into the world of private chefing and working for myself in my own business. And it is true what they say, starting your own business is hard work. But the great thing is starting your business can also be incredibly rewarding, which is why I've teamed up with Thinker at the University of Adelaide to learn a bit more about the business of doing business. Together, we will sit down with some trailblazing women and talk to them about the business behind their successes. I'm talking about the business of building confidence, the business of bouncing back, the business of brokering security, and the business of being you through it all. Today, we are honoured to be joined by a nationally respected advocate, 2021 South Australian of the Year, and one of the country's most influential Indigenous leaders. 1:47 Tanya Hosch: My name is Tanya Hosh. I'm a Torres Strait Islander woman, live on Kaurna Country. I'm a mother of a 17-year-old Daughter. I love buying pyjamas, but I'm terrible at sleeping. 2:01 Sav Perera: Tanya has held senior roles across sport, the arts, public policy, and social justice. She's been a driving force behind some of Australia's most significant cultural shifts, from leading the Recognise campaign to creating frameworks for inclusion, anti-racism, and gender equity. Tanya brings deep insight, passion, and a fierce commitment to inclusion in every space she enters. Tania, thank you so much for being here with us at You're In Charge. To get into it straight away, so much of your work has, you know, you've worked across many spheres. There's sports, there's policy and the arts. And through all of that, your focal point has always been about the inclusion piece. It's been about the diversity piece. So talk to us about the history of that. Where does it all begin for you? Was there perhaps a pivotal moment or was it maybe a series of compounding things? Yeah. Where does it all begin for you? 3:06 Tanya Hosch: Well, thanks for having me. I wanted to acknowledge that, uh, this conversation is taking place on Kaurna Country. Yeah, look, um, it's a question I've been asked a number of times and I mean, I think what it really, um, the work that I've been so passionate about, it's really stemmed from my own experiences of racism as a young child at school. Um, and I still have quite vivid memories of some horrible racist experiences from the ages of 6 and 7, all in the schoolyard and even sometimes as a result of teachers. And that had a huge impact on me. Um, and it's only now that I can reflect and think about how much it impacted my self-confidence, my self-esteem, and all of those sorts of things. By the time I was 18 and I'd finished school, I have a very distinct recollection of taking my dog for a walk. And suddenly this thought popped into my head and it was, it's more important to do what's right than it is to be popular. And I like to say I've been making myself unpopular ever since. Really, I think that was the beginning of me starting to think about what am I going to do about that from the perspective of it would make my blood boil. But also really triggered trauma from those experiences. And I thought all of those kids that are going through that and don't know what I now know, you know, and I was all of 18, but I felt like I figured something out at that moment. And I thought I need to be doing things that enable me to make a difference. And I didn't know how, I didn't know what that would look like, but I think that was the driving force behind a lot of the decisions I've made in my working life. And Also in my volunteer work. 5:13 Sav Perera: Do you find that now with, you know, it's been a while you've been in this space and, you know, there's always that thing of you've created the wave and you've shown up, which means other people now feel empowered to show up. Is that sort of that systemic, like, injustice that you suffered really from a very young age? And I'm sure that we continue to see it as well to this day. Is that still what drives, or what's driving the conversation further now for you at this stage in life? 5:43 Tanya Hosch: Well, I think because obviously it's still a problem and we're still seeing an enormous amount of injustice and that happens along all sorts of lines, as I've discovered. I remember when I first started to understand the concept of intersectionality, and that was when I started working at the Women's Information Switchboard, which is now the Women's Information Service. I think up until that point, and I was in my early 20s then, I put a lot of negative experiences of discrimination down to the color of my skin, being an Indigenous Australian. And then going to work at WISS around all these incredible feminist women who were so committed and they really invested in my naive understanding about gender equity. And that's when I really first discovered feminism. And that helped me understand a whole range of other things that were in play. And, you know, I, I really see that as a pivotal moment as well, because it helped me to see a much bigger picture of what was in the way of people being able to live strong, healthy, self-determined lives that were fair. And yeah, I think to suddenly start to get an understanding of all the different layers of discrimination that can play out at the same time or even separately, and being around all these different wise women, Indigenous women, non-Indigenous women, you know, women who spoke English as a second language. 7:25 Sav Perera: Mm-hmm. 7:25 Tanya Hosch: I was just surrounded by all these women who'd understood gender equity and had developed institutions and systems to really empower women. And similarly, I was meeting Indigenous leaders who are really, um, on the front lines of, you know, fighting for the rights of Indigenous people. So I have been incredibly fortunate. And so that has really shaped, I guess, my sense of commitment for the concept of paying it forward. You know, I couldn't have done the things that I've been able to do without the people that went before me. And so while I'm capable of making a contribution, it's my job to do that. 8:07 Sav Perera: I really love that you said essentially a version of, you know, we do stand on the shoulders of giants, um, in many ways when, you know, you are a person of color, a woman of color, an Indigenous woman. Um, and I think that's actually incredibly valuable to hear that it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but there's so many steps, and there's so many people that form the backbone. And I think it's really important for our listeners to hear that as well. Which brings actually to me to the point about oftentimes I'm sure not only have you been the first and the only in a lot of ways, often you possibly have been the only woman in certain spaces, the only Indigenous person and woman. Tell me a little bit about that. I know that's a broad thing, but, um, touch on that for us. 8:59 Tanya Hosch: It is a unique experience. Um, I've been surprised when I've been in conversations, particularly about racism, and I've been in a conversation in a room or online with, um, a group of white men and they haven't invited me into the conversation to speak. Um, now I'm never sort of massively affronted by that because I guess I'm not surprised by it, but at the same time, I wait for enough space to say what I believe needs to be said. I think in moments like that, I'm less likely to fight for my piece of the dance floor. I'm much more likely to hold and hold and hold, listen to all of those comments. And while the irony of the scenario may not be lost on me, it's an opportunity for me to understand what they do know or do not know so that I can choose my contribution in a way that's hopefully going to serve that, that moment well in terms of where we need to go. So from where we are in terms of where we need to go, that can be a really lonely experience. It can be a really isolating one. And I think, you know, certainly you do feel unseen. You can feel unheard. You can feel underestimated. 10:38 Sav Perera: Hmm. 10:40 Tanya Hosch: Um, but over time, what I've grown to believe is that if I've still got a seat at that table, then I need to make it count. 10:51 Sav Perera: Yeah. 10:52 Tanya Hosch: And if I allow all of that negative self-talk and the systemic, um, systems that would seek to make me small and invisible, if I allow that to stop me from making a contribution Then it probably means I'm not ready to be in that room and it needs to be someone who isn't going to be overwhelmed by that. Now that is exhausting. 11:15 Sav Perera: Yeah. 11:15 Tanya Hosch: And it's scary. You know, there's not a lot of fun or joy in any of that, but I'm pleased that I have learned to find a way to still speak and, um, be heard. Um, And, you know, also, you know, I've learned to give feedback about that so that next time I'm in a room with those people, it's, it's less overwhelming. It's less difficult for me to be seen and heard and seek to be clear about how we create conversations and space for you know, First Peoples, people of color, anyone who experiences disadvantage to have their voice and have their perspective heard and, you know, given the respect it's deserving of. 12:12 Sav Perera: Yeah. Thank you. And I just want to touch on something that you said that I actually personally, personally resonate with quite deeply, which is the invisible barriers, uh, that you were talking about, which unless you've been through it, you just cannot explain to someone else. what that feels like, where it just, you know, for me it feels like, you know, why am I not progressing this? Why is this conversation not being heard? And it's, I'm sure you can understand how frustrating that is. 12:38 Tanya Hosch: Yeah. 12:38 Sav Perera: And you said it is exhausting and it's not pleasant. It's not a pleasant thing to, you know, sit with, but you also then touch on, touched on the confidence. So how do you build that confidence for yourself? How did you get to that point? 12:53 Tanya Hosch: I think it's fair to say that it doesn't matter how much experience you've had. I don't feel confident every time, every day, or every time I'm in that spot. There are some days where I think I go in feeling defeated before we've even started. And I think that's normal. I think, um, it's hard to be on top of your game every minute of every day. 13:16 Sav Perera: Mm-hmm. 13:16 Tanya Hosch: But having said that, I also think that practice is important. I think anything that we want to be good at or be competent in, you've got to practice it. And so when I decided at 18 that I wanted to change the world, I realized you can't do that one person at a time. So you actually have to keep putting yourself in positions where you have to prosecute your case. In front of groups, in the media, through speeches, whatever the op— whenever the opportunity arises. And practice, practice, practice. Um, and it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to ask for reinforcement. It's all right. It's all right to have a vent with friends and allies who understand, who don't need things explained to them. Yeah. It's important to have those systems of support for yourself that are going to work for you. And, you know, I think in this day and age, a lot of us have WhatsApp groups for that purpose. I've got a number on the go. Um, but yeah, that, I mean, I think, um, knowing who your trusted critical friends are as well, people who will give you feedback that you need to hear to continue to craft. Yeah. yourself in the best way to be most effective is, is important. And, you know, unless you've had someone deliberately train you, then a lot of it is going to come on the job. And I don't think there is any, um, think better than experience. 14:54 Sav Perera: Another thing that you touched on, which I really, really liked, was also about, you know, how exhausting being like essentially representing and being that figure it is. And also, I think you essentially touched on like picking your battles, so to speak. I— different to say who I was 19 years old when I first moved to Australia as the first generation immigrant, 18. And a lot of the injustices and the conversations that I had about it, it's very different to what I would be having now. And at certain points I'm just like, I just can't engage. And you just have to know your capacity. But when you're so often in the public eye, and it is essentially your job, for lack of a better term, to be having that conversation even when you're exhausted, like, what's the process of picking that battle? Like, do you have sort of certain things with certain groups that, you know, that you can sort of see where you go, okay, this is not worth me pursuing this argument in this fashion, or how, what's the process like for you? 16:03 Tanya Hosch: Look, I think there's so many variables that impact on those decisions. So it might be, how tired am I? What else has happened in that series of days or weeks? One way that I can try to explain is that I've often said to people, when it comes to racism, the one that will make you just draw a hard line in the sand is often not the worst example of racism that you would have experienced in that week. It's just the one that pushes you over the edge. 16:39 Sav Perera: Yeah. 16:39 Tanya Hosch: And so quite often they could even be the, the most innocent, if there is such a thing. And so I think you have to really be self-aware. I think that's the key, being aware of your own limitations. Um, I mean, only last night I was talking to a friend on the phone, an Aboriginal man, and he was talking to me about a scenario that we're both approaching in the coming months. And he said to me, with everything you've gone through recently, Do you think you really need to put yourself in that situation? And that's where your friends and allies and those critical friends are so valuable, where your peers are so important, because he was absolutely right. And actually what he said to me, I've already now decided I'm not going to do that because it's actually not necessary. And so sometimes I think you have to get help to put boundaries up. 17:40 Sav Perera: Yeah. 17:40 Tanya Hosch: Because Often for those of us who are so used to being the advocate, it can be hard to know when to put that down. And I'm not the only one that's advocating. I'm not the only one that can advocate. And so sharing those experiences, referring them on to others, and also just asking for help and a bit of support is important. Yeah. You know, I think we're always most effective when it comes to addressing really big, hard issues when we operate as a collective. 18:17 Sav Perera: Yeah. 18:17 Tanya Hosch: And so that also helps me when I'm without much choice and I am in a situation where I have to show up and do it. Okay, this is the moment where I have to do it and it's not easy and I wish I didn't, but I do have to. So let's just get it done and do the best we can. They are part of the same cycle. Yeah. They're all the same thing. And, you know, I think the older I get, the better I get at choosing the things I say yes to, the things I say no to. Used to be terrible at saying no. 18:52 Sav Perera: Yeah. 18:52 Tanya Hosch: Getting much better at it. 18:54 Sav Perera: Yeah. 18:54 Tanya Hosch: Um, but it's still hard. It's still hard to know when it's okay to put the tools down. Um, but the thing is, we're all part of one big system. And I think it's important to remember it's never just you. 19:08 Sav Perera: I love that you said that because I've often spoken about, you know, knowing when to protect your peace with other lists, uh, with other guests that we've had on the podcast as well, about knowing, you know, as you said, when to put the tools down. And I think it's really valuable for our listeners because we have a lot of young women that listen. uh, young women from diverse backgrounds. And I think there is confidence that's needed to actually learn— in learning how to say no 19:37 Tanya Hosch: and 19:37 Sav Perera: saying, this is not for me. And what I loved about something that you just said is about it's not just you advocating, there's other people. But I think it's really easy to get into that trap of like, oh, I have to do this all by myself because like I'm the only voice that's like hearing, because you kind of put yourself in an echo chamber as well. Yeah. So thank you. That was actually, that was, I think, really important, not just for me to hear, but for everyone else listening as well. Now jumping into something that you've actually been leading, which was the nationally recognized campaign Recognize. Let's talk about that. You've, you know, really dug your heels in and pushed for recognition for First Nations Australians, Indigenous Australians. Mm-hmm. Talk to us about connecting with people on that personal and public level. I know it's a big thing, but yeah, tell us about the experience. Tell us about maybe perhaps some things that you've learned that surprised you. 20:35 Tanya Hosch: Well, Recognise was quite a while ago, even though the campaign wasn't. I mean, that was, you know, the sort of second phase post the expert panel that made the recommendations for constitutional recognition. And Recognise was the community awareness raising, um, to get the country ready for a referendum to understand the basics that, you know, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aren't recognised in Australia's highest legal document that was forged in 1901. And we're still not as a result of the vote from 2023 in the referendum. Look, I knew very little about the Constitution. Um, I'm not a lawyer, although lots of people assume I am. Uh, not sure why. It's either because I wear glasses or the way I argue. I'm not sure which, although I get both, um, reasons that people have assumed that about me. I think that I really wanted to do that work because I believed in the importance of the constitutional recognition, but I also had a real desire to learn about campaigning. And campaigning and advocacy do have some cross lines, but they're very different things. 21:55 Sav Perera: Yeah. 21:55 Tanya Hosch: And one of the greatest opportunities of my working life was to learn about campaigning. Um, because campaigning is about communicating to the masses. It's about taking Sometimes a simple or sometimes a complex, um, discussion and working out how to communicate it to people who are busy, tired, worried about getting their kids to school, worried about paying the bills, worried about their day at work, worried about finding work. Everyone in every walk of life dealing with their daily struggles. Mm-hmm. and then asking them to think about a document that they never think about. 22:38 Sav Perera: Yeah. 22:38 Tanya Hosch: You know, it's quite a challenge. But there's a fair bit of science in campaigning, as I learned, and I was very fortunate to have the campaign experiences of Tim Gartrell and Mark Textor, among many others, really invest in me. in that time. And there was a couple of things I learned. One was authenticity is so important. If you think about how many speeches we all hear, maybe how many podcasts we listen to, how many do you really remember? Yeah. You know, not a lot. And, um, one of the things that I did learn through some, um, great training that I had Um, by a wonderful trainer. His name is Anthony Simcoe. He trained me to deliver a speech at the National Press Club, um, as part of that campaign. And I thought, I've been talking in public to lots of people for many years and I didn't know any of these things. But one of the main things he taught me was authenticity, being yourself. And I realized that Whenever I was communicating with people, if I tried to be anything other than me, 23:59 Sav Perera: yeah, 24:00 Tanya Hosch: I didn't do so well. I was so nervous. I was, because I was trying to put myself into something I wasn't. A really great friend of mine, um, who I was working with at the time, he's also an excellent communications practitioner, said to me, I want you to watch all these Barack Obama speeches. listen to his cadence. And I'm like, I don't even know what cadence is. And I was looking at these YouTube clips. Barack Obama, I am not like, I can't do that. And every time I watched, it made me more scared. 24:33 Sav Perera: Right. 24:34 Tanya Hosch: Because I knew I couldn't achieve that. While I was on YouTube, I would watch the old Beyoncé clip and Beyoncé at the Super Bowl 2013. So I just kept watching that and I know that's, I wasn't about to sing and dance, but she had such a fearlessness in her performance. That vibe, um, was something that I really took on. So that with the training that I, that I had, the practice in refining your message, learning how to articulate it, but in your own words. So it is really authentic. And I think as a first Australian, it was possible for me to bring a more intimate sense of why I thought this was important for the country and for the growth and maturity of the nation. And with all of those campaign experts around me supporting me, encouraging me, I did find my voice through that work. And I, it's ironic because I took the job on the basis that I wouldn't have to be the public face of the campaign. Uh, and it quickly became impractical for me not to do media. So all of a sudden I had to learn to do it. But if there's any advice I would have for anyone, just be your authentic self because it'll serve you well. And I think it's much easier for others to hear. 25:57 Sav Perera: Authenticity. You spoke about showing up as yourself. Something that I sort of personally reflect on is the authenticity piece as well. And I know that it can actually be, as you said, really hard because when you are a woman of color, a person of color, someone from a diverse background, that piece of who makes you, you feels like the thing that people attack you on. Feels like that's the magnet for criticism. So in the face of that, Mm-hmm. I think it's important to hear from you, especially for our young listeners, How do you foster that sense of authenticity? How do you show up as you? How do you build that self-confidence? 26:45 Tanya Hosch: For me, it took quite a long time and there's a lot of, um, twists and turns. 'Cause I think it's important to acknowledge that, um, you know, being considered diverse doesn't shield you from the criticism of other people who are also considered diverse and will critique your version of yourself on similar grounds to which they might hold a view that they are the perfect manifestation of it. 27:22 Sav Perera: Yeah. 27:22 Tanya Hosch: And I know that we don't talk about it very much, but I think it's a big thing. I think over time, what I've come to realize is that I do my best work when I'm being as true to myself as I can be. And look, there's lots of times in your professional work where you do have to bring a certain version of yourself. Hmm. And I remember when I was preparing for the Press Club, Anthony Simcoe telling me, I know you don't really do a lot of formal speeches, but there is a formal version of Tanya. So that's who you're going to be for this. Because it was important in the moment to hold that moment. I needed to project myself in a certain way to be credible in a really, really important and rare moment for me. Yeah. And so I think for me, what I've learned, what makes the authenticity easier is to not say yes to things that I don't feel I can do justice to, to feel joy and positive about. And I thank you for that offer, but actually, you know, half a dozen people who would be better. Yeah. And on that basis, I don't feel that that's something that I want to do or should be doing. And there was a time when I used to think that you had to do everything you were asked. I remember Linda Burney asking me to give a speech at a conference in New South Wales many, many years ago. And I said yes, because I think I was flattered that Linda Burney would think of me. And I ended up getting really sick. I had a cold, a terrible cold, and I did a terrible job. 29:22 Sav Perera: Hmm. 29:22 Tanya Hosch: And, um, not just because I was sick, but I was actually out of my depth then. I, and I shouldn't have done it. And I think, you know, and I learned that lesson. And so I think, you know, making sure that what you are putting yourself up for is the right thing and that you can, you can feel good about it. And it's okay not to be perfect. You don't have to be an expert. I'm not suggesting that, but I think it's important. What is going to help you feel really centered about what it is that you're doing? Do you have something to say? Now, I'm the sort of person that's probably blessed with an opinion about almost everything. So I could say yes to almost everything, but that doesn't mean that I'm the best voice, the best perspective, the most important one. And it's a good thing to be able to share space and provide room for people who are yet to have that moment to be sharing their, their view as well. So I think on balance, the authenticity is about the mix of all of those things. Um, and also just feeling clear about why you're saying yes to checking your motivations. 30:34 Sav Perera: Yeah. 30:35 Tanya Hosch: Um, because it is easy to get swept up into other people's expectations of you. 30:40 Sav Perera: I actually really appreciate the fact that you touched on essentially allyship, actually. Yes. It's a big thing. I think, um, it sort of comes back to something that you said previously as well about the community, and you're not the only person running the race that's fighting the fight. I think often when you are sort of representing, for lack of a better term, you do sort of forget that there are all these other people doing the same thing, and how do you also amplify their voice? And then if you say perhaps have a bigger platform than someone who's in a similar situation to you background experience-wise, how do you then bring them up to then sort of quieten yourself? Speaking of impact, the way that I actually got to know your name personally was when all of the stuff happened with Adam Goodes, and I do actually want to touch on that. You really pushed for that public apology, and for me personally, that was a learning, a massive learning experience as an immigrant, as someone that was learning about First Nations and Indigenous Australians, and perhaps not necessarily initially understanding what happened, why it was such a huge thing, why the apology needed to happen. And it's been a huge cultural event. It's been a massive impact. And there's always that thing, and this is actually something that I observed watching Adam go through this, just being in not just social media, but just general consensus. And I continue to see it against almost people from— well, it is always against people from diverse backgrounds, from— The lens that I always see it in is as a woman of color, as a South Asian, and as an immigrant. And it's always, you're asking for too much. It's always a, why can't you be happy with what you're getting? You're better off already. It's better than it was 100 years ago. You're asking for too much. How do you deal with that? Because to me, it angers me and then I get tired. The anger makes me exhausted and I just disengage. But I know there's young listeners as well that I'm sure feel that way because you're being told, hey, you're asking for too much. And if you show up with confidence and if you say, no, I want these people to say that they are sorry, that, you know, they shouldn't— like, you're asking for accountability, but then asking for it is— you're being pushed back and you're being told, no, you're asking for too much. 33:18 Tanya Hosch: Hmm. 33:19 Sav Perera: How do you deal with that? 33:20 Tanya Hosch: Yeah, I like, I think there's no straightforward answer to that. 33:25 Sav Perera: Um, 33:25 Tanya Hosch: I mean, one thing I have learned over time is if you go to someone for something that they don't have the capacity to give you, you need to cut your losses. 33:38 Sav Perera: Yeah. 33:39 Tanya Hosch: Because I'm not interested in an insincere apology. Are you? 33:43 Sav Perera: No, 33:44 Tanya Hosch: no, no, I don't think any of us are. And so, um, there's an apology and there's justice and there are basic human rights that we should all be afforded. And there are things that can be delivered through interpersonal relationships. And then there are the systems change. I think being really clear about who it is that you're asking for something from is important. If you're talking about what happens in the context of a large institution, you might be speaking to the head of that institution, but should you be talking to the board? Hmm. Because the administrator has got certain delegations. There's often a number of people that will carry responsibility for certain things. Yeah. And sometimes seeking justice, seeking change is going to come best through a large collective of voices asking for that change. And often institutions and systems are really limited in their ability to respond unless it comes through a certain system. 35:14 Sav Perera: Yeah. 35:14 Tanya Hosch: And so some of these things are, I think, often easy to fix. And sometimes there's a bit more complexity, but ultimately what we're talking about is a shift in power and a shift in people having the ability to be respected. Now, respect, I think most of us understand because we certainly understand when respect isn't there. 35:45 Sav Perera: Yeah. 35:46 Tanya Hosch: I think power is always really, really difficult to shift. And some people will feel a loss of power if they apologize. If they acknowledge that they have done something wrong or someone has done something wrong, then ultimately it's a responsibility for them to fix it. So I guess what I'm saying is probably need to accept that you've got to play the long game. 36:13 Sav Perera: Yeah. 36:13 Tanya Hosch: Because a lot of the sorts of things that many of us, I think, would benefit from seeing change in, uh, systems-wide Based in power, based in the dominance of a certain sort of privilege and power, and take a long time to shift. And so then you have to think, okay, can I be here for the long haul? 36:39 Sav Perera: Yeah. 36:40 Tanya Hosch: And my view would be yes, but not if it's just me. 36:44 Sav Perera: Yeah. Thank you. Now, Speaking about systems, and you said certain systems don't necessarily align with where you need to go and what you need to do. Looking at your history, your career, you've been at the top level, like at an executive level. You've been at those higher levels of being able to influence change and be a changemaker. Talk to us about actually operating at that level versus like there's a lot of grassroots stuff that happens, and I think we all We all start there, um, when you're advocating, when you're representing, but then the game obviously changes as you get into different positions of power, as you say. Talk to us about being at that executive level and then being able to influence change, or is it still the system that you're fighting, or how does that shape and evolve, or how has it in your case? 37:42 Tanya Hosch: I think when you're at those very senior levels, you have to accept that you're part of the system. That you may seek to change. So you can't divorce yourself from being part of it. 37:55 Sav Perera: Yep. 37:55 Tanya Hosch: And so there can be an inherent conflict in that. We feel like, okay, well, I've got a seat at this table. I'm part of the, the, the, um, authority that rests in this institution. So I've got to take responsibility. So my commitment is to all these other people that I share that power and privilege with. And so sometimes you will be in a position where you're backing in, um, a decision that you're not entirely comfortable with. 38:26 Sav Perera: Yep. 38:26 Tanya Hosch: And then the rest of the time you're trying really hard to get people to be comfortable with a position they're not comfortable with. And so, um, I think one of the hardest things about some of that work is that you can't be as transparent as you would like to be because of reasons of confidentiality. And I'm a pretty transparent person in most cases. And so I'm more likely to divulge more information rather than less. And certainly found that difficult in not being able to sit someone down or sit down with a group who are unhappy with a scenario and say, well, this is why we're doing it, because it would have exposed or compromised other people. And I didn't have the right to do that either. Um, so that, that can be a real challenge at times. I think it's so incredibly important to have that sort of inclusion of people like you and I in a really visible way in those rooms, because if we're not, our perspective's not even in there. 39:30 Sav Perera: Yeah. 39:31 Tanya Hosch: And I think that you have to look at the big picture. Over time where I've had those opportunities, um, and even being on boards of organizations and companies, I like to think that I made a difference in the way that certain things were understood and was able to contribute a perspective that would have been unseen and unheard if I'd not been there. Mm-hmm. I always took those responsibilities really seriously. So I think some days you would feel compromised. Some days you would feel really unhappy with that. I remember saying to a friend once who was involved in a big institution as an Indigenous person, and that institution made a decision that was really unpopular with a lot of First People. Right. And they were devastated that they hadn't been able to win the day. 40:39 Sav Perera: Mm-hmm. 40:41 Tanya Hosch: And I was able to say to them, you know what? I know that you're upset, but I know that you would've done everything you could in that moment with that opportunity to put an alternate view, and I don't for a moment think that you wouldn't have. And there have been times where I've had that said to me too. We're not going to win every argument. 41:16 Sav Perera: Yeah. 41:16 Tanya Hosch: But I would rather, and I said this to my friend at the time, would rather that you were there than not. Yeah. And so then it's our job to support these people who are occupying these rooms. After all, we've spent generations advocating for our right to be in those rooms. Yeah. And there's a reciprocity. It's easy to think that being in those roles is glamorous and You know, and they do come with privilege. They often come with great salaries and all sorts of opportunities that a lot of people don't have. You know, I remember back in the Recognised days dealing with, you know, a lot of First Nations people that didn't support constitutional recognition, which is an entirely valid view. But a lot of progress has come because we've had progressive resistance movements that remind us that even this change isn't enough. Yeah. And a lot of those people pay a really high price. So it's always been my view, I'm not gonna complain about sitting in a really comfortable executive suite with catering and people bringing me coffee when there's brothers and sisters out there in the cold, not getting paid, or if they are, not much at all. 42:41 Sav Perera: Mm-hmm. 42:42 Tanya Hosch: They're not being invited to red carpet events and being flying around the country. There's a lot of privilege that comes with some of those positions. And it's important to remember that part of the reason I'm there is because of the hard yards that other people have paid with very little gratitude, probably zero recognition. 43:06 Sav Perera: Yeah. 43:07 Tanya Hosch: And never you know, properly been understood and respected for the contribution that they have made. 43:15 Sav Perera: Yeah. 43:16 Tanya Hosch: And are making. We're all part of the same system that some of us get the opportunities to do it in a more comfortable way. So even when I have felt victimized, when I felt kicked, when I felt scared, alone, discriminated against, as I said at the start of this conversation, I'm not the only one. 43:42 Sav Perera: Yeah. We do ask all of our guests this, and it has been an amazing conversation for me. There was so many things about what you said that resonated, and I think there's a lot of value that our listeners will take away from this chat as well. But tell us about something for yourself that you want to master this year, whether it's Personal, professional. We had Janine always say that she wanted to master doing something on a longboard, surfing. So it can literally be anything, but what would you want to master for yourself? 44:14 Tanya Hosch: Well, um, it's almost 2 years since I had my lower right leg amputated. And so in my prosthetic, um, I've had to, you know, basically wear sneakers. And look, you know, there's lots of them around and I've got them all in lots of different colors at the moment. It's awesome. But I'm hoping soon that I'll have a foot attachment that will allow me to wear a small heel. So if I can get back into my really beautiful Chloe boots with the studs all over them and master wearing those and walking around in those this year, I'll be pretty happy. 44:53 Sav Perera: Tanya, this has been an amazing conversation and that's a very good goal. To work towards. I'm sure you will, uh, but just want to say thank you so much again for being here and for the beautiful chat we've had. 45:07 Tanya Hosch: Thanks for having me. 45:08 Sav Perera: We have had an amazing chat with Tanya Hosh today, and for me personally, coming from a diverse background as a Sri Lankan woman, as a first-generation immigrant, uh, in Australia, This has been not just an incredibly insightful conversation that I've had with Tanya, but also there's been a lot of value for me personally where advocacy and actually social justice and equity and actually having conversations about it is concerned. Um, the main takeaway for me from Tanya was the fact that you can't constantly demand perfection when you are seeking progress. That you sometimes do have to settle for the progress that you get versus perfect progression. And I think that's really important to learn, and that's important to keep on the back of your— back of your mind, because perfection for perfection's sake doesn't mean that you're actually going to be making any headway with what you're trying to achieve. I found that to be really reassuring and And I think a lot of our listeners who are from diverse backgrounds as well will understand that, yes, it's exhausting and there's a lot of work involved in representing and in showing up, but it's important work and it's valuable work and it's work that you don't have to do alone. And with that, season 1 of You're In Charge has come to an end. Thank you so much for joining us on this journey. If you're wondering where you're going to get your inspiration from now. Don't worry, season 2 is already in the works, and we cannot wait to bring you insights, ideas, and inspiration from even more amazing women in business. Hit the big follow button on your favorite podcast app to make sure you don't miss a thing. In the meantime, search for Think Lab— that's T-H-I-N-C Lab— on all the socials to stay up to date on all the fabulous programs and workshops that Thinker offer young business leaders. Have thoughts on what or who you'd like to hear on season 2? Email us at [email protected] . All the links and info you'll need are now in our show notes. Keep inspiring, keep thriving, and remember, you're in charge of your business journey. You're in Charge is brought to you by Thinker, an initiative of ThinkLab at the University of Adelaide. Google Thinker—that's T-H-I-N-C-H-E-R—to join our empowering community of like-minded women in business. You're in charge was recorded on Garnerland. We acknowledge the Garner people, the original custodians of the Adelaide Plains, and the land on which the University of Adelaide's campuses at North Terrace, Wake, and Roseworthy are. Built. 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