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Trang Nguyen on Investing in Ambitious Founders and Building Lasting Venture Franchises

First Cheque

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Episode Summary:

In the latest compelling episode, we delve into the investment philosophy and keen insights of Trang Nguyen, a trailblazing figure in venture capital. Nguyen shares her journey from placing an early bet on Tesla to her current efforts in redefining the startup ecosystem. She outlines her criteria for backing emerging fund managers and underscores the importance of founders who aim to build venture firms that transcend personal branding and leave a lasting impression.

Nguyen advocates for a platform approach where venture firms offer scalable services to startups, akin to corporate giants like Apple or Amazon. She argues this is crucial for a venture firm’s sustainability and ability to scale, detailing why simply being a good investor isn’t always enough. Moreover, Nguyen provides a peek into the future of startups, highlighting the potential for AI to revolutionize the way companies are founded and grown.

About the Guest(s):

Trang Nguyen is a pioneering investor with a bold approach to venture capital. She has made notable investments in transformative companies, including an early investment in Tesla. Trang is known for her long-term vision and commitment to supporting ambitious entrepreneurs in creating impactful venture firms and startups. Her work revolves around the principles of venture as a future-facing and influential asset class, embracing the role of technology in shaping investment paradigms.

Key Takeaways:

  • Trang Nguyen made a pivotal early investment in Tesla, signifying her long-term investment mindset and dedication to visionary founders.
  • Nguyen emphasizes the necessity for venture capital firms to build platforms that deliver scalable services to startups, not just make investments.
  • The future startup landscape, according to Nguyen, will be heavily influenced by AI, possibly becoming co-founders alongside human entrepreneurs.
  • Nguyen believes venture capital is deeply intertwined with technology and will continue to be a critical asset class for the foreseeable future.
  • Despite current market sentiments, Nguyen is bullish on venture capital and its role in driving innovation across all sectors.

Notable Quotes:

  • “Venture is in every single asset class.”
  • “In order to identify the future of venture capital, … you just need to go and look really stupid in front of a lot of people for a long period of time.”
  • “Everything you do is venture. It’s just whether you recognize it.”

Transcript

This transcript has been A.I. generated.

Cheryl Mack: Okay. Three, two, one. Hey, I’m Cheryl.

Maxine Minter: I’m Maxine. This is First Check, part of Day One, the network dedicated to founders, operators, and investors.

Maxine Minter: If you want to be a better early stage investor, this is the show for you.

Cheryl Mack: So TLDR, if you don’t want to suck at investing, listen up.

Cheryl Mack: So Maxine, you got Trang to come on our podcast. Super excited.

Maxine Minter: I did. I did. I know, I can’t wait. Poor Trang I’ve like been hitting her up recently for so many opportunities to talk just because I find her so fascinating. It’s probably going to be like three sessions that I get to pepper her with questions in a 30 day period.

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Maxine Minter: And hopefully she doesn’t get bored of you or annoyed with you. Oh, I think she will. But more importantly is I am not bored of her and her content. So excited to have her. That is much more important, clearly. She, uh,

Cheryl Mack: her portfolio is absolutely crazy, like the fact that she invests in funds of funds. I think she has more fund investments than I have direct investments, which makes her indirect investments in the thousands.

Maxine Minter: Yeah, like orders of magnitude of our portfolio for sure. She’s got like 50 fund investments and that wouldn’t include like all of the funds that she would get to look at. along her journey. She also has 36, 000 LPs in her, like, broader community. She used to run an LP community. And so, like, She just has this amazing vantage point, like two LPs, so like the people that invest in funds or invest in funds of funds.

Maxine Minter: And then this incredible vantage point, you know, into companies all the way down. So it’s just like I’ve heard they call

Cheryl Mack: it the, uh, the LP crystal ball that she has. And she spoke about that at Web Summit. So I

Maxine Minter: really wish I could have been there. She, yeah, yeah. She’s like totally incredible. I also, I think it’s really easy.

Maxine Minter: To like, from that vantage point for her to be quite consensus thinking, right? Like she would get so many data feeds, so to speak, from her LPs and the community of LPs and the companies that she invests in. But I, I, I think this is like one of the most impressive things for me. For her, she’s just such a differentiated thinker.

Maxine Minter: She’s so frequently, she’s kind of seen a trend or invested in a trend way before it’s become even like part of the early adopters. And she’ll talk about that on the podcast, I’m sure. So. Yeah. She’s just totally incredible. I’m such a fangirl. The poor thing. You know, I should probably stop peppering her with my excitement at this point.

Maxine Minter: Well, for

Trang Nguyen: now,

Cheryl Mack: uh, we’ll welcome her on the podcast and we can think about maybe you stopping peppering

Maxine Minter: her later. Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. So, so excited to have her on.

Maxine Minter: And uh, welcome Trang. Yeah, let’s

Cheryl Mack: jump into it. So one of the first questions we always start off with is what is one of the first things that you ever

Trang Nguyen: invested in? The first thing that I ever invested in, like Thinking of like an investment, like where I actually like think a lot about is, is actually Tesla.

Trang Nguyen: Wow. And as you know, like a lot of people actually laugh at me when I bought Tesla because I was, I bought the company when it’s when IPO, I think in 2011 or 2012. And the stock of Tesla, I believe it was flat for a good five to seven years. And it did not take off until, you know, just in the last, you know, 12 to 24 months.

Trang Nguyen: But I think the reason for me to invest or make that investment is, you know, I just fundamentally believe in Tesla as the business model. And I believe in Elon Musk. And I never sold my stock, you know, so that’s how to date has done well for me. And that’s the way I think of about the investment. It’s like, I think very long term and you know, I can be completely wrong.

Trang Nguyen: I think you heard the story, you know, like Apple, I mean, at some point Tesla almost went out of business and, you know, it was offered to Apple and Apple should have bought it. But they didn’t buy it, right? So that’s a lot of crazy story. But I think whenever I make an investment, I always remind myself of.

Trang Nguyen: What did I do when they invest in Tesla, when it’s won IPO?

Maxine Minter: That’s amazing. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who invested in their IPO. As you said, it was like a very non consensus bet for a very long time. Yeah, exactly.

Trang Nguyen: For a long time.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. How did you first hear about it? And like, what got you to conviction early?

Maxine Minter: If I can take you back to like, like what, 13

Trang Nguyen: years ago? Yeah. That’s when, 2011 That’s when it’s won IPO. So it’s obvious that it’s like, a word. Oh, 10 years ago, um, I get involved in ventures earlier than that. And I do know, you know, investor who invest in Tesla on the private side. And a lot of these investors actually burn out, if you remember, because Tesla is such a capital intensive companies.

Trang Nguyen: So even the seed investor in Tesla didn’t make money, but you know, when it, when IPO is open to public investor, I just believe in the vision of the company as a whole. And I just believe in the founder and that’s kind of the reason why I invest in Tesla and I believe in Elon Musk. I invest, I believe in, you know, the vision of the companies were very far fetched then.

Trang Nguyen: But it’s like everything else, right? That’s why we invest in quantum computing in 2017, right? Xanadu. It can go to zero, but you know, if it works out, you know, it’s potentially can return multiple times the fund. You know, I think so the whole things, I think like when I look at our investment thesis is about identify, you know, the future of venture.

Trang Nguyen: Right? Which is, we need to take risks. You know, when you invest in venture, you need to take risks. And we do that in terms of, you know, working or invest in fund managers or companies as well. Because otherwise you should go and do buyout, you know, or something else, not, or buy real estate. You get like very good returns buying real estate too.

Trang Nguyen: That doesn’t

Maxine Minter: sound nearly as

Trang Nguyen: fun. Yeah. Yeah. But I’m just saying that. Venture by definition you need to take weeks, right?

Maxine Minter: So. Absolutely. And what a cracker of a first investment. Yeah. No kidding. That’s going to be up there with one of your best performing investments. Which one? The Tesla Buy. Is that one of your best performing investments both on PA and like on your personal investing and in the fund?

Maxine Minter: Or have you surpassed that?

Trang Nguyen: Personal investment? I don’t know. I don’t know. I think like we have, you know, better investment on that. That was just my first investment. And wow, by the way, for the very long time, it was flat. So it was not supposed to be a return driver, right? Right. So that’s what I mean is that even when you look at fund managers, right, for a long time, some of the funds may look like really bad and then it’s just taking off completely, right?

Trang Nguyen: And there’s certain funds that take off early on and may not do well in the long run. So So that’s just something to, I think it’s more like a lessons for me. It’s not even like about the investment returns. It’s about, you know, like kind of like how I think about kind of like investment thesis and investment belief.

Trang Nguyen: It’s not even like Tesla in terms of returns. It’s the fact that I invest in Tesla was flagged for almost 10 years and then it take off. And the reason I believe invest in Tesla, because I believe in Elon Musk. And the vision of the company.

Cheryl Mack: Yeah. I think that really speaks to like the. The like having to believe in the vision of the founder because you’re essentially picturing a world that doesn’t exist right now and saying, yeah, I believe in that future that you see, I may not see it, but I believe that you see it and that that could be the future, especially if it’s nowhere close, like 5 to 7 years before anything started to take off, like, I can’t picture what’s going to happen 2 years from now, but you know, you believe in a founder and their vision for something that’s going to be A thing in 10 years, it really speaks to like the type of investment that we do as venture investors.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, I think like a lot of the time people forget is that the best founders, they create, you know, like new market, right? Look at Facebook, look at Amazon, look at Google, the best founders, they create new markets, right? So sometimes people just analyze too much on, you know, market, but I really think. You know, sometimes you just need to bet on the people, you know, at the end of the day, venture is also, you know, the people being this way.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. Look at Slack. Slack was a video game company and, you know, we become something else. A hundred percent. Was it? Slack was a video game company? Yes, exactly! You didn’t know that. No, I did

Cheryl Mack: not know that. Yeah. Who, did people invest in it then or did they only invest once

Maxine Minter: it became what it is now? They did.

Maxine Minter: No, no, they invested in it then and then Slack was the internal communications tool that they built as they were trying to build a video game company and then they realized they weren’t going to get traction on the video game side and then, correct me if I’m wrong, they exited or like asked all of their team to leave, like a team that they loved.

Maxine Minter: It was just The two founders and one person, so they went into like hibernation mode.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, yeah. Two founders, Stuart Butterfield and, and his wife. Yeah. Right.

Maxine Minter: Yeah, that’s right.

Trang Nguyen: Huh. Oh, his ex wife. Yeah. It’s amazing story. Amazing. But I mean, that’s my point. Like, you know, sometimes you just need to back on the founders.

Trang Nguyen: The same with Brian Chesky. Like, do you think Coybase would? You know, we Coinbase like they would be a crypto exchange company in 2012. I don’t think so. .

Maxine Minter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It actually, I mean it kinda, you walking through the way you think about that Tesla investment makes it so clear to me why you built Transpose and kinda how you think about the generating these venture funds and supporting these venture funds.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. It doesn’t make it clear to me, fill me in. No, no. We’ll dive into that in a moment. Yeah. That’s why we had to dive in. Yeah. Yeah. What’s really interesting for me is like. your context and that you’ve been thinking in this way for a very long time. So I wonder if you can kind of educate us a little bit on like what it is that you’re building at Transpose and like how you came to conviction that this was worth building and what your journey has been to

Trang Nguyen: date.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. No, that’s a very good question. And I think like that Tesla was really kind of like our investment belief and our investment thesis and that’s what made it today. Okay. So when we. Obviously both. You know, my co-founder Alex Bangash and myself, um, had history predate pho, right? But in 2015 when we formed pho, we had one goal is that we want to help ambitious entrepreneurs to change the game of venture capital, right?

Trang Nguyen: So to think, you know, outside. Of, you know, the norms, like, you know, just like the Tesla investment, like the thing outside of, you know, the traditional thought of creating, you know, first or second time fund, but really create a breakthrough in ventures that enable us to, you know, some of the most prominent venture investor calls like the Y Combinator for Proven Entrepreneurs.

Trang Nguyen: Um, because it’s highlighting our commitment to enable, you know, the entrepreneurs who are, you know, different stage of their journeys. Right. So we enable a lot of entrepreneurs, founders, and operators to create funds, or, you know, create platforms like an accelerator. So we involved with Y Combinator very early on.

Trang Nguyen: We also back, you know, studio at scale, like for example, Entrepreneur First. We also like enable entrepreneurs and usually like identify entrepreneurs even before they have funds. So some of the funds that we have anchored to date, we work with entrepreneurs two years before they have funds. Right? And then from that, you know, when we anchor the funds, we also work with them more than just, you know, a financial partner, but also a top partners so that they can create an institutionalized.

Trang Nguyen: Venture firm, and then we invest in companies from that. So today, you know, transfer would sell, we have back over 50 GPs and most of them are like first or second time GPs. And, or they don’t even have debt before, you know, we talk to them, uh, we invest in 76 companies directly. And we actually incubate one company named Hubble Network, which is a satellite connectivity device company, uh, with a seasoned entrepreneur who had taken company public before.

Trang Nguyen: So that’s kind of like our thesis is that we really want to. You know, identify entrepreneurs like the Elon Musk early on, we wouldn’t back them in whatever structure it can be a company like Hubble Network, right, or Tesla, so on, um, you know, it can be in a venture structure, like a venture studio, where they can incubate multiple companies, it can be an accelerator, right, or, you know, it can be a venture funds, but the one thing that we really want to work with these entrepreneurs is that we don’t just want to back, you know, A venture funds, we want to back entrepreneurs who have ambition to set up.

Trang Nguyen: The Amazon, the Apple, the Google Venture Capital, right? I mean, why we, why, when I look back, why back Tesla, because he’s such a visionary, right? He didn’t, he just, he want to create Tesla, which is, you know, number one electric company, right? And, and that’s how we feel about, you know, Venture Capital. Once we look at, you know, managers that we want to buy, we want them to have ambition of create a brand that is bigger than themselves, right?

Trang Nguyen: A brand where, like, if you look at Y Combinator today, right? Jessica Livingston and Paul Graham, the two co founders, had created a brand that’s bigger than their personal brand, right? And, you know, we want to find, you know, those type of funds. You know, where we think that’s the future of venture capital, you know, that’s so

Maxine Minter: interesting.

Maxine Minter: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah How do you pick the

Cheryl Mack: how do you identify? Emerging fund managers that you want to work with like what really makes them stand out to you. You’ve obviously worked with so many What are the first things that you identify within them to decide if you want to work with someone?

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, I think that’s a very good question.

Trang Nguyen: So, you know, going back, right? So for us, if you look at the type funds that we invested before, like Y Combinator or you know, , you know, like a 10 or entrepreneur first and so on, we really focus more than just financial returns, right? Even in this process, sometime we identify first or second time fund that generate 10 x or a hundred x, right?

Trang Nguyen: But our goal again. As I said, like we want to find the venture capital equivalents of giants like Apple, like Amazon, you know, um, like Google and so on. So, you know, that’s kind of like our aim. And in order to. Identify those entrepreneurs we want to work with a lot of that, like, you know, when you make a direct investment in, in a seed companies, right?

Trang Nguyen: So I don’t, when we make an investment in emerging managers, we think of that like a startups. It’s like, you know, a seed investment, right? In a venture fund, fund one and fund two is like a seed investment. And then you find. You know, product market feed, that’s their front three. And then, you know, whether you can create the, you know, Apple or Amazon, that’s when you kind of like go public, right?

Trang Nguyen: That’s when you have create like YC. YC, if you look at YC is exactly the same. If you look at YC history in 2012 to 15, that’s when they find product market feed, right? And now they really take off and create their own brand. So what’s really set these managers? Apart and we don’t look at TVPI and DPI and, you know, one of that metrics.

Trang Nguyen: It’s good, but I think like if you create a brand and if you can create a solid firms, like just like on the startup side, the return will come, right? Like when you make an investment in a startup, similar concepts, right? It’s not so much on TVPI. You back that this company can potentially go public and go.

Trang Nguyen: Can become a 10 billion multi billion company or even a 100 billion company, right? So it’s the same thing. We don’t look at, you know, DPI, TVPI, IaaS, because I think the returns will come if the venture capital firm can create a brand for themselves. So we really look for managers who can provide value to the startups.

Trang Nguyen: And therefore, you know, they can create a brand. In the ecosystem, right? That’s good. Like, for example, Y Combinator and Zaster, those are platforms that has significant brand for startup,

Maxine Minter: right? That’s so interesting.

Cheryl Mack: Makes me wonder if we’re not thinking big enough here in

Maxine Minter: Australia. A hundred percent, we’re not.

Maxine Minter: Like, I, I find myself listening to you, Trang, and just thinking, like, how many people do I meet in the Australian ecosystem who, even if they are visionary, right, they have, like, a very clear vision of what they want to build, feel. Um, able to communicate it to the Australian market without being penalized for being kind of unrealistic.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. I imagine a world where younger Elon Musk goes to market in Australia on, you know, his first business or even like the, I don’t think he would be able to get funding away for something like Tesla. I know. So I think that’s something for our Australian ecosystem to really level up our thinking on.

Maxine Minter: The other thing that really jumps out to me that is as you’re talking about it, the. Kind of DNA of the successful emerging fund manager who can kind of build that platform, that kind of Apple, Amazon style and the successful entrepreneur who can build the Apple, Amazon actual business. Yeah. Is it the same DNA that you look for in someone?

Maxine Minter: Is it the same skillset or is it kind of conceptually similar but actually tactically different skillsets? Yeah. Yeah.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. So it’s a very good question. I think it depends on whether you view, you know, the venture capital firm as a corporations, or you just view them as a fund managers, right? And I think, you know, there would be a business innovation, right?

Trang Nguyen: So if you look at historically, When you evaluate a venture managers, like, you know, the Sequoia, Excel, Andreessen, you look at the partnership, you look at, you know, whether the partners has, you know, operating track record, whether they can add value to the portfolio companies and then whether they, you know, has a brand with the entrepreneurs and so on.

Trang Nguyen: Right. But, you know, as you evaluate, like some of these firms, you look for what is a new high, what’s the generation chain, can they maintain, you know, the same. You know, brand reputation and investment acumen as, you know, the earlier GPs. Right. But then you, when you look at the newer models in venture capital, like, you know, the Y Combinator or the Entrepreneur First.

Trang Nguyen: It’s less so much on investment in human, it’s about like, whether it’s a solid corporations or not. Right. Because you look at a models, like an accelerators, like a Y Combinator or an Entrepreneur First, right? They create startup or they, they are almost like a factory of startup at scale, right? So YC graduate, you know, 450 companies per year to 500 companies per year, or, you know, 2000 companies, um, In the next four years, right?

Trang Nguyen: Even more, right? So the way I’m looking at a Y Combinator, I’m looking, I see like a Toyota, Honda, and so on. So I evaluate some, yeah, I evaluate, you know, I evaluate a fund manager like that, like a platform like that, you know. So when I look for these managers, I looking for business innovation and I evaluate them.

Trang Nguyen: So when I evaluate a lot of these new venture models, I evaluate them more, you know, like the company. So, so it would be identify entrepreneurs who can create, you know, uh, firms. You know, a corporations, right? And, you know, I think, and, and when you evaluate a corporation, it’s very different than, you know, even, even evaluate a GP because in a way it’s not so much on the track record up.

Trang Nguyen: These firms, right, because again, the check makers will come if you own 7 percent of high quality products and you consistently produce, you know, good companies at the demo day and so on. Like, so a lot of the time it’s really depend on the quality of the entrepreneurs that they can attract to the program and how well the program can run, right?

Trang Nguyen: So that’s, that’s the way to look at that. So you are right for these new models. A lot of the time we want to find, you know, The Elon Musk of venture capital or the Steve Jobs of venture capital. It does sound

Cheryl Mack: like it’s pretty similar though.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. Yeah. It strikes me as kind of like a marketplace

Trang Nguyen: business, no?

Trang Nguyen: Marketplace for, for the venture firm? Yeah. No, I don’t think so. It’s like, it’s a corporate, it’s like, it’s a manufacturer. It’s just like when you invest in Honda and Toyota from the beginning, but this is with startups and guess what, these wins. But you also

Cheryl Mack: get a little piece of each car

Trang Nguyen: as well.

Trang Nguyen: Exactly. And that’s why it’s great, right? Because you know, the value of the corporation, you know, the value of the corporation is a value of the companies that they create. So it’s the same thing. If you create fantastic products, so their products right now is a startup that they produce, right? If you create like fantastic startups.

Trang Nguyen: Then you will generate great returns. So it’s a little bit different. Like, do I, do we look at the check record? Yes, we look at the check record over time because eventually, you know, after 10 years. If you have great brand with the entrepreneurs, your track record should reflect that in some way. You know, you should have some good companies coming out from that.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. But it sounds like you’re

Cheryl Mack: really focused on like the people to begin with, right? Like if they don’t have a track record, that’s not why

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, I mean first and second time fund managers. Exactly. You don’t look at TVP idea. You can’t look at TVPI and DPI until like terminal value because the TVPI can be manufactured to how many funds that we run by FTX.

Trang Nguyen: I don’t even know if accelerators track that. No, but I’m, I’m just talking about just think of the TVPI, how many funds when FDX worth 40 billion. You know, the FDX, like, oh, Hopin, Hopin is a great example, maybe not FDX because it’s an extreme. Hopin was 7 billion. How many funds out there that has a return of 10X based on Hopin?

Trang Nguyen: A lot. 7 billion and it’s got acquired by, you know, for 15 million valuation or something like that. Right? Yeah. So. That’s my point. Like, you can’t look at TVPI and DPI early on. You need to look at the brand that these ventures firms build with the entrepreneurs. Because the return will come if you have a high quality brand, right?

Trang Nguyen: Absolutely. It’s the same thing. Yeah. Apple is an amazing company, the return will come when you invest in Apple stock because the company is fantastic. Yes, they make really good products. Yes, they make really good

Cheryl Mack: products. Yeah. I’m hooked now. I can’t leave Apple.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, exactly. And I think like going back to the Australian ecosystem, what I see is that, so when I look at, you know, some of these global accelerator.

Trang Nguyen: They have the best founders from different geographies like latam, right? Which is similar. They don’t have like, you know, I mean, they don’t have the same ecosystem like Silicon Valley. So same with Europe early on, right? And sometimes the best founders, they move to the US. So that’s, I believe that, you know, if I look at, you know, Australia, there can be opportunities to.

Trang Nguyen: Europe, like 10 years ago, that’s when you start seeing some of the fun, like index, local growth, you know, these are very great firms, right. Or, you know, point eyes, they start in Europe, like maybe 12, 15 years ago in, you know, they say gap, right? Because a lot of the entrepreneurs who moved to Silicon Valley or, you know, go to YC from these, a different ecosystem, they need to go get to a certain.

Trang Nguyen: Matrix before they can get to the program and I think that they a good great gap in terms of capital and investors that can deploy a, you know, what I call precede or seed before proceed where they move to Silicon Valley, where, you know, there would be like local venture capitalists. You know, who can enable the startup to go to a certain, you know, certain stage before, you know, they can go to Silicon Valley.

Trang Nguyen: Absolutely. So I think that’s, that’s where I, I can see like, you know, great funds, you know, can, can farm from these regional, you know, ecosystem, right? Same thing, you know, like now Europe has become more mature that, you know, you start to see, you know, multi stage firms in Europe. Right. And you see, you know, companies actually stay in Europe.

Trang Nguyen: Right. But early on, even the Collison brothers founder of Shripe, right. They moved from England to San Francisco because there was no capital. There’s no receipt, you know, nothing that can fund them in Europe. Right. So if there was a fund that can fund, you know, Shripe in Europe, then they would have stayed before they moved to Silicon Valley.

Trang Nguyen: Right. So I do believe there’s a gap there in the every single regional ecosystem. Especially at early stage.

Maxine Minter: Yeah, you’re preaching to the converted, right? I think that’s your whole fun thesis, isn’t it, Maxine? Yeah. Yeah, that’s my fun thesis. There you go. But I mean, I, I totally agree, right? I think that there is.

Maxine Minter: Like, geo specific, because there’s only, also there’s only like a handful of people who can move, or who are as geographically mobile to kind of move to Silicon Valley on an idea. Yeah. Only a handful of people have the personal capital or the personal flexibility to be able to do that. Yeah. And I think that.

Maxine Minter: If you build a system where it presumes that, you know, self people can self fund that stage to be able to get those traction metrics, then you are saying only the wealthiest people or the most connected people can build meaningful businesses. And I think I reject that as a premise. I don’t think that that’s a good strategy.

Maxine Minter: I agree. Yeah. I also think that for, you know, my experience in the Bay Area is that for folks that are coming kind of to the Bay Area outside of network, so to speak. So they like, don’t know a lot of people in the U S and are not kind of a known commodity in the U S. They need more metrics to show that they’ve got something of value and that they’re worth, worth backing.

Maxine Minter: Exactly. Yeah. You know, there’s obvious diversion paths here, right? Like you can go through YC and then if you get in to YC and are successful there, it’s a way to. Kind of drive that value, but yeah, I, yeah, I absolutely think that that’s true. So when you’re thinking about, you know, you’re meeting all of these fund managers, what’s amazing to me in your history is the kind of vantage point you get across LP positions.

Maxine Minter: I mean, the fact that you have 50, you know, fund positions, 76 directs, suggests to me that you have seen thousands and thousands of funds over your life to date. And you kind of, um, a visibility across your LP ecosystem, which, you know, I think, uh, stats I saw anywhere up to 36, 000 institutional LPs that you’ve seen.

Cheryl Mack: That’s crazy. You have more fund investments than I have direct

Maxine Minter: investments. Yeah, it’s wild, right? Like truly incredible vantage point.

Trang Nguyen: Firm investment, but remember Your indirect portfolio

Maxine Minter: must be huge.

Trang Nguyen: Yes, exactly. Thousands of companies. Yeah.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. So what do you notice for fund managers that are You know, initially promising, but then maybe aren’t able to make the graduation from fund one to fund two or fund two to fund three, or kind of in your analogy there, kind of get that early product market fit and then through to the ability to scale.

Maxine Minter: What, what are the kind of failure modes that you noticed for those fund managers? Yeah.

Trang Nguyen: So I think like, as I mentioned, and I love it because you say like product market fit because you’re right. Like when I look at, you know, first or second time fund managers, it looked like a. You know, seed investment for us, right?

Trang Nguyen: It is, it’s like you made a bet on the seed companies. It may take off and, or it may not take off. So one of the things that, as I mentioned earlier, is that when we invest in a fund managers, we want to look for an ambition, right? And we want to look for entrepreneurs or fund managers who want to establish a lasting venture franchise that bigger than themselves, right?

Trang Nguyen: And one of the key. Thing is, you know, it’s really difficult to build a firm in platform, right, than making investment. And some people may be a good investors, but they’re just not good at building platform and for firms. And that is not sustainable over time, right? Cause if you look at Andreessen, like Andreessen today, because they was able to be our platforms that they can, you know, create values for company at scale.

Trang Nguyen: Right. And that’s why, you know, that’s an integrable firm over time because they has a brand with entrepreneurs. So I see a lot of the fund managers is. Number one common is just the ambition is not there. It’s really hard. It’s really hard to be able to affirm all the. The platform, right? Because I would buy a fund managers just like, you know, like how you do a seed investment.

Trang Nguyen: Obviously the entrepreneurs or the fund manager go and has this pitch about, because obviously we don’t look at TVPI and DBPI. And we most likely know, you know, this person potentially can make a good investment judgment or not, because they usually had angel portfolio before, right? Or, you know, they may have.

Trang Nguyen: They may be a good operators or entrepreneurs in their prior investment career, but you know, they would go and pitch an idea. It’s like, you know, they’re going to create this brand or platforms to, you know, scale the firm. But what I ended up after first one, after the investment period, there’s no firm building, there’s no platform.

Trang Nguyen: There’s no brand with, you know, the entrepreneur, especially after two funds. So returns may be there, but that was it. You know, they can’t scale out of their personal brand. And some of them don’t just, the ambition is not there because not everyone in Elon Musk, like, because you may be a seasoned entrepreneur before you had a successful exit before, and you may want to invest as.

Trang Nguyen: You know, your part time hobby or something, but that’s not the kind of like people we want to back. Right. We want someone who’s serious about creative investment firm and building companies with difficult. So a lot of people just give up. So I see some of our managers have, you know, five X or 10 X, and I don’t want to name a name, but you know, some had over a hundred X, but that was a one, 100 X fund and they never returned because, you know, sometimes people are too rich.

Trang Nguyen: Some of the managers are just too rich. The ambition is just not there anymore. Sometimes

Maxine Minter: people are too rich.

Cheryl Mack: Man, to have that problem in my life. Why can’t I be one of those people? I want to be one of those. She’s too rich. She can’t. I’m curious though, like, what do you mean by platform? Like when you say they can’t build a platform, what do you mean?

Cheryl Mack: What do you want to see?

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, so if you look at Y Combinators, they build a platform, right? Because You know, they accept, you know, like 30 maybe 30, 000 application per, per year, per, per batch. And then from that, they screen out 250 companies, right? And they have, you know, this platform where, you know, people go online, apply for that, you know, and there’s a three month Okay, you mean like a Online platform not online platform.

Trang Nguyen: I’m talking about like providing service at scale Okay, so think of why combine it if people go to yce is It’s almost like getting in the brand of YC and then try to, you know, they have you with pitching, right? They have you with fighting, you know, fine tune the product market fit face so that, you know, you have, you know, scale, revenue fast.

Trang Nguyen: Oh, you will look at first about capital, right? They have platform because they have, you know, they, they had like. You know, hiring, where they have, you know, startup hiring or help with products and so on, same with Andreessen. That’s what I meant. Platforms is, you know, almost like where you go and like, it’s almost like a startup university where, you know, you provide values to the startup.

Trang Nguyen: Okay. Got it. Yeah, that’s what I mean. So if I look at, maybe I look at this. If you look at Sassster, right, I mean, obviously, you know, Sassster conference. I know the conference. Yeah. Yeah. But I don’t view the conference as a conference. I view the Sassster conference as a platform. Why? Because they have the conference for, you know, Sass founders, 10, 000 founders go to that conference.

Trang Nguyen: You know, Jason Lemkin also has his, you know, content, um, you know, on Sassster as well. Um, you know, he buys mentors as founders and talk about his experience, you know, with equal sign and, you know, with starting his.

Trang Nguyen: So the way I view those are like platform, that’s what I mean by platform, whether you can provide service to the startup, it can be software, it can be offline, but you know, I, I think if you can create a software platform right now, it’s so important because there’s would be just more and more companies, right?

Trang Nguyen: You know, the time when Steve Jobs go to, you know, Apple and Sequoia to ask money to raise money for Apple is not the same. There’s only a handful of Steve Jobs right now. There’s just more companies. And I think like there wouldn’t be millions of startups being created with AI because it’s so cheap to start a company right now.

Trang Nguyen: Absolutely. See, I think it’s better to have Subway.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. Yeah. I think what jumps to mind for me is the like. counterpoint to this, right? The like, the version where a fund manager isn’t building a platform. And as you highlighted, you know, there are some funds that build incredible returns, maybe one, two, three funds, you know, examples of this that jumped to mind for me would be like Lockheed grooms fund.

Maxine Minter: or like individual investors that are building like a standalone fund where the value proposition to the founder is like, I will work directly with you as a fund manager. Whereas if you compare a 16 strategy, which is, it is about the, the fund manager, but it’s more about the kind of suite of services that they deliver to the companies that they work for to help de risk that company.

Maxine Minter: Exactly. So like a 16 was, you know, kind of, if I think about the. history of fund management development and fund development. A16 was kind of the first one to make that platform strategy really built out at scale, you know, and they, so they think about that. What are the key risk areas for these businesses?

Maxine Minter: How can we help these businesses de risk those key risk areas that are like commodified and not. Differentiated. Mm-Hmm. , finding good talent go to market very effectively. Finding good pr so they have, you know, standalone teams that add that value to the customers. Mm-Hmm. , uh, sorry. To customers, to the, well they are the customers, right.

Maxine Minter: To the entrepreneurs and to their teams. Right. To help scale them in first rounds example. Um, it was awesome having that pla the platform that they provided around the table with us. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. My last company was backed by them. So I experienced that platform firsthand and everything they did around connecting you with great people.

Maxine Minter: Customers. Yeah. Customers having network, which was their kind of internal hiring process as well. They’re like internal platform so that you could go on there and have a look, you know, like it was kind of like Quora slash LinkedIn slash like angel list all together. So they had data products. They had like a whole like grab and go product set that you could take.

Maxine Minter: To kind of de risk those key areas. And I, I mean, I, I totally agree. I think those key areas, it’s really valuable as a company working in that context. And with one of these backers behind you, because you get this whole extra bucket of value that helps you deliver more effectively.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. And Maxim and Joe, like building platforms right now is more important than the past, right.

Trang Nguyen: In order for you to generate high returns, because as an venture, as an LP, the way I look at it, you can be a good investor. But I’m not just backing, if it’s just a traditional partnership like a Maxim or Cherry, right? I’m not just backing, when I invest in you, if you don’t have a platform, I’m not just backing you whether you are a good investor.

Trang Nguyen: I need to back that you are lucky, because there’s just many more companies nowadays. I am

Cheryl Mack: incredibly lucky, Trang. I am the

Trang Nguyen: luckiest. I know. But I don’t want it in the business of backing. I’m talking to you right now. No, I’m not. I don’t want in the business of betting people who’s lucky. I mean, it’s good, but you know, no, I get that.

Trang Nguyen: I, I rather have more short on goals. So it’s just like more companies now being create. That’s why you need to have platforms so that you have visibility in. More companies and then you have first check in more companies and from there you can double down on, you know, your winners, but I don’t think, I think it’s really hard to kind of do a traditional venture firm where you invest in, let’s say if you have four partners, each partner invest in eight company and just work at those company is really hard.

Trang Nguyen: I mean, yes, you can still get a good returns, but I, I don’t think you can scale over time. Even that I had to think about generation change, right? Because I had to think like, okay, what happened after Maxim and Cherry, right? The next person, you know, that better than themselves, right? Versus if I back a platform like a corporation, so I’m going back to the example like Y Combinator.

Trang Nguyen: Or you know, like Toyota, Honda, you know, Z’s platform has built a brand that bickers than you know, the GP or founders themselves. And that is very important. You see, that’s why I wouldn’t get consistent returns over time, and I’m not betting on someone who is being lucky and I don’t need to think about Generation Chang and all of that, you know?

Trang Nguyen: You know,

Cheryl Mack: it’s really interesting, Maxine. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but like in Australia, I, I seem to see that like some of the funds that have fantastic returns, but aren’t as well known, aren’t, uh, either maybe they’re raising their next funds under, under the radar, but I don’t see them. Announcing that they’ve raised their next funds or that they’ve, or even some of the ones that I know of aren’t raising a next fund at all.

Cheryl Mack: And it kind of brings to mind, like, I wonder if that’s because they’re less well known and haven’t been able or haven’t been as successful at building that

Trang Nguyen: platform here. Oh, they could have made like a billion in carry and decide like, you know what? I’m good at billion in carry and I wouldn’t retire.

Trang Nguyen: That’s

Cheryl Mack: true

Maxine Minter: too. And I’m out. Just too rich. It is. A fund

Cheryl Mack: that’s a 10 year commitment is a long time, so fair enough, if you made a billion in carry, like,

Maxine Minter: sweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Officially on the beach. What jumps out to me, though, and I think the brilliance of Trang’s model is that, like, It’s tiring and a long term thing to build three funds, right?

Maxine Minter: They’re like two to four years each. If you build three funds in succession, for some people, that’s like a decade of work, and so it’s possible that they’re just getting to the end of their kind of value creation period. And to kind of underline this point, I think there is value created in that strategy.

Maxine Minter: Of course there is, right? Like the like carry and fund returns are reflected there. Top costs. Yeah. Yeah. But what I think is interesting is Trang’s strategy is more about like long term, like really long term thinking, which was fascinating. You know, looking at your first investment decision, it’s really built in there.

Maxine Minter: I, maybe just like a Personally curious, I feel like with that longterm thinking and the bias that you have to be able to think across that longterm, you kind of dropped a little Easter egg in there that, you know, millions of companies are going to be started in this kind of AI, new AI world. From your vantage point and through your lens, what do you think the startup ecosystem looks like in say five years, in 2028?

Maxine Minter: What do you think it’s going to look like?

Trang Nguyen: Yeah, I think those are very good questions. Now, interest rate has not come down, so it’s not, there’s a lot of tourist investor has gone out. So at least, you know, I think like there’s will be more quality, high quality founders. But one of the things that I see, well, we recently back on AI.

Trang Nguyen: Accelerator, where AI is your co founder of this startup. Technical co founder? I mean, how do you gonna do the, well, they do the cap management, you know, they can co create, you know, co pilot the coding. They can go through the emails and that will get better over time. But You know, the first thing is that, you know, they, they can do like a lot of these early stage stuff, you know, like not tech, not just technical, but like maybe like technical and operation co founders, you know, like a lot of, does the AI get

Cheryl Mack: equity?

Cheryl Mack: How much equity

Maxine Minter: does the AI get? How do you,

Trang Nguyen: how do you determine that? No, that’s the beauty of the model, right? The AI would not get

Maxine Minter: equity. Yeah.

Trang Nguyen: Right. Oh, wow. But the people who create, the accelerators that create that AI who is a co founder of the

Maxine Minter: startup wouldn’t get equity. Oh, interesting. See, there’s the model.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. So the accelerator delivers the like co founder who is an AI. AI. Because I mean, like I have seen products that do like AI for go to market, AI for customer validation. Like that’s a really like a super fascinating model. I do, I do think we are at the beginning of an era of. Multiple hundred million dollars to even, you know, maybe a billion dollar company with only a handful of team members that uses AI to scale.

Trang Nguyen: I think so too. The only thing that I had to say is that I would like to think so, and I believe it. I just thinking of, yes, you can create a company, but remember as I said, to be a enough Customer buyers as well. Mm hmm. So I do see technology going advanced. What I haven’t seen, especially in SaaS, is a SaaS sales cycle.

Trang Nguyen: Done, but with AI. You know, it’s still like take a very long time, right? The sales cycle for SaaS products still take a Yeah. Like you can create an amazing product, but you need to have customers. That’s my point.

Maxine Minter: Right. Yes, of course. Or you could just

Cheryl Mack: have a bunch of AI customers. Maybe AIs are going to need software.

Maxine Minter: Software eventually. Yeah.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. And where’s the capital come from? Right. Right. How do you value the

Maxine Minter: companies? Yeah. Yeah. I do think it poses an interesting question for investors because traditionally, as you said, at the kind of outset of this conversation is like venture, you have to take risk. Yeah. That is the nature of venture capital.

Maxine Minter: Yeah. And increasingly as your co founding. maybe with an AI co founder, or you are using AI to scale, I don’t know how deep that loss making period is before you’re able to unlock upside, and therefore how much capital you need to fund that. That valley, you know, yes, at scale, on average, 30 percent of your revenue goes to growth if you’re trying to grow at that trajectory.

Maxine Minter: But that also might be something that is no longer true in a world where companies have a whole bunch of agents or a whole bunch of AI that is delivering it. So I do think there’s a kind of open strategic question for us as an asset class of, in the future, will we continue to take the depth of risk that we have in the past?

Maxine Minter: And if not. Can we, like, do we have a place here or do we need to find a different place to start investing? You know, I’ve already seen kind of a trend towards deep tech, which I think is an interesting question. Mm hmm. An open kind of area for curiosity for me is right now, especially in the Australian ecosystem, but kind of across the world, we’re fairly bearish on venture.

Maxine Minter: Mm hmm. You know, you kind of hear it kind of across the LP group, but also, you know, with angel investors and even founders. And I think that’s why you see only the most convicted founders of building their companies. You have, as I mentioned, this incredible vantage point, both across fund managers, direct companies, but also through LPs.

Maxine Minter: I’m wondering, what are you hearing out there? What are people talking about in terms of venture as an asset class? And

Trang Nguyen: where do you think it will go? Here, I think most of the LPs right now, the reason why they skeptical in investing in venture, it’s not so much on it. They don’t believe in venture because I think ventures is.

Trang Nguyen: Impacting owners or asset class. Agreed. I really, as long as you have tech in your portfolio, I don’t care about public equity or, you know, debt. As long as it’s a tech component, that’s your venture exposure. Right? And I do believe that LP still fundamentally believe in venture as an asset class. So we think that the difficulty to deploy capital right now is because of liquidity crunch.

Trang Nguyen: Right? Right? Because. You know, there’s a period of 2021 where we had the best venture market, right? IPOs have raised over 600 billion 645 billion, right? And then, you know, everything was marked at 100x multiple, right? Then, you know, you look in 2020. Two, you have the worst IPO market ever, right? So there’s not a lot of liquidity back for the LPs.

Trang Nguyen: In 2023, there’s like, we talk about many times, my son, but there’s like three good tech IPO, like solid. And those are very solid companies that go IPO, right? Tragic. Yeah, it’s like tragic. So LPs. On the one hand, they still overweight a lot on venture and they didn’t get any liquidity, right? And they really overweight because a lot of the companies are still at paper valuation or has not mapped out to the public comp, right?

Trang Nguyen: Look at Instacart, amazing, fantastic company, but it was 40 billion in public market, I’m sorry, private market and 10 billion in the private market. Right? A lot of the fund managers, especially some of the brand name has evolved from being a venture capital firm to become multi stage firms, multi assets in, you know, an asset manager period.

Trang Nguyen: Right? I don’t want to, you know, Say out loud, but they’re not going to get your venture return. But the whole point, they had so much dry powder that they can keep doing bridge route for their company. So you don’t see these company go down route as well. So then LP says these overweight hyper, you know, paper valuation on the venture portfolio.

Trang Nguyen: So it’s a way overweight. And that’s the reason why they cannot deploy in new managers or venture. It’s not because, you know, they think that, Oh my God, the return is so bad. No. It’s not. It’s because they are very overweight in venture. And then, you know, some of them has invest in tourist investor and obviously get crashed and burned on that.

Trang Nguyen: But I think most sophisticated investor didn’t invest in those, those tourist

Maxine Minter: managers. I think what’s really interesting for me that is I hear from Australian LPs. And I actually, I wonder, this is probably a shoot myself in the foot moment, but like, I wonder if they’re actually looking at the outside of that industry and seeing big Um, international LPs not deploying to venture, not understanding the driver of it.

Maxine Minter: And the takeaway is that they, like LPs are not strong on venture. They’re not as excited about it as an asset class. And then what’s driving their behavior is they also are kind of starting to pull back from venture, not because they’re overweight, but because they think it’s kind of not in vogue. I hear that feedback from quite a few wealth management platforms and some family offices, which is our LP base.

Maxine Minter: Which I think was, was, Really interesting. Actually, it’s the inverse here. Yeah. It’s like, they’re so bullish on it that they’re overweight on it and now they actually can’t.

Trang Nguyen: They’re still overweight. Yeah,

Maxine Minter: exactly. Yeah. From a construction perspective. From the

Trang Nguyen: asset allocation, you know, and liquidity constraint.

Trang Nguyen: But I was, I’m, I’m here in Arizona. I was at this conference that, you know, there’s hundreds of LPs in the U. S. And, you know, everyone, the whole conference is about venture. Venture is the most important asset class now. If you think tech, look at that, tech is impacting everything in your life. And AI is impacting everything that you do, right?

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. So how is that, you know, like if you’re not investing in ventures, you’re not investing in the future of asset management. Venture is in every single asset class. Right.

Maxine Minter: Just for the folks in the back, if they need to hear that again, should we repeat that? I,

Cheryl Mack: it’s so funny that like, that’s so obvious to you, but in Australia, that’s not like the average person that you talk to is like, tech doesn’t have any influence in my life.

Cheryl Mack: Yeah. Which is

Maxine Minter: absolutely not true. It’s absolutely

Cheryl Mack: not true. Yeah. It wouldn’t

Trang Nguyen: influence agriculture as well. A

Maxine Minter: hundred percent. You went and see.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. Yeah. And if you not. So the thing is, like, if you don’t invest in that, you’re gonna get behind, you know, and someone will replace you. You’re

Maxine Minter: already

Cheryl Mack: behind.

Cheryl Mack: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Once again,

Maxine Minter: for those in the back. Right. Right. Even that mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Trang Nguyen: Absolutely. I really think venture, uh, I mean, look what, I mean, I can’t tell the name, but one of our clients at one point, Uber is the whole position. Whoa, driving 60 percent of their entire endowment returns.

Trang Nguyen: Whoa, whoa. Because they was in a manager that seat Uber very early on, and they have a big position in that manager. But that’s my point. Holy moly. Everything you do is tech. Everything you do is venture. It’s just whether you Recognize or not, you know, one of the things that people don’t recognize, let’s say if I’m an early investor in Tesla, right?

Trang Nguyen: Like you invest in a fund that, you know, see Tesla early on when Tesla went IPO, you didn’t need to go and sell it for cash. You, if you bullish on Tesla, you can keep holding that position. So then you still have this public position in your portfolio. Why should you ever sell Facebook or Apple or Amazon?

Trang Nguyen: Right. When you get distribution back from your venture managers. A hundred percent. Fair. Yeah. So I think it’s not about venture. It’s, it’s more about identify the tech companies. And if that’s a good tech company, hold it in your portfolio. It doesn’t matter whether it’s private or public. 100%. That’s my, you know, that’s my belief.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah.

Maxine Minter: It’s really interesting. We see a version of this at the moment. Obviously, Australia is very heavy, heavily weighted to Canva’s success from a bunch of different vectors. You know, a lot of wealth was created for the early venture fund managers by being in Canva. You know, our big funds, all of them are in Canva.

Maxine Minter: And then there’s a lot of Um, employee kind of equity upside that’s in Canva. And so it’s liquidity or absence of liquidity. You can see it in the Australian venture ecosystem. And so there’s a huge push at the moment for a lot of folks, I think for that overweight in reason to try and like get liquidity from Canva and you’ll see Goldman Sachs kind of doing that, um, secondary in Goldman, sorry, in Canva.

Maxine Minter: But it’s an interesting counter position here from you being like, Hey, like if you think they’re a great company and they have great. elements to them, like you should be holding that stock for as long as you think that that’s the case. Exactly. Especially for sophisticated investors. As long as you

Trang Nguyen: think that it is the case.

Trang Nguyen: Yeah. Especially like if you had large pool of capital, right? If you had a smaller, you know, pool of capital, I understand you need liquidity. It’s fine. And maybe if you are in canvas seed, Sell on the secondary may be good so that the LPs can deploy, you know, get some distribution and deploy new managers and so on.

Trang Nguyen: If you, if you are like a sovereign wealth fund, so big poor capital, I genuinely believe you will have good companies on the private market and so venture capital distribute to you. You should just hold it in the public market and it wouldn’t do well for you because. If you sell it, and then your public manager pick it up, you are just paying fee, well, to all the same position.

Maxine Minter: Truth. Yeah, it makes me think of block. I think. Sequoia says that they really wish they had held block through pub through IPO because more value was created post IPO than it was prior to IPO. And so that was a very painful position. I didn’t put two and two together that for the LPs in Sequoia, like they ended up paying it twice because their public market managers bought it again and then, you know, held up for the rest of the period of time.

Maxine Minter: I just feel like that has zoomed. I feel like I’ve just looked at the clock and we are way over. And Zoe, I am so grateful for this chat. This is kinda last question we always ask everyone, and I’m super excited to hear your thoughts here. But what was the biggest big COAs moment you’ve had in your journey today?

Maxine Minter: That moment where you felt super brave for what you were doing?

Trang Nguyen: So still today we back an AI accelerator. Was a co-Founder is an AI. In agent instead of a person and I think like when we present this idea to a lot of LPs, they. I don’t think like, I think 99 percent of the people don’t believe in it. And that’s kind of like our key investment thesis, right?

Trang Nguyen: We identify the future of venture capital. And we basically say, you know what, what we really think by now is the future of capital, AI will be your co founder. So we, you know, that’s the, you know, I think like we only think outside the box. Right. And I, I really think when. If you look at YC, YC wasn’t a copy of Sequoia.

Trang Nguyen: When we back in Entrepreneur First, EF wasn’t a copy of YC as well. I believe that in order for you to generate outside return in Alpha, You just need to go and look really stupid in front of a lot of people for a long period of time, like the Tesla example. Perfect. On it.

Maxine Minter: I love it. What a wonderful way to wrap it up.

Maxine Minter: That’s the key takeaway, everyone. Just be comfortable to look really dumb. You just need to look really stupid for a long period of time. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Thank you so much for joining us, Drang. This, like always, has been an incredible conversation and we’re so grateful for your time. Awesome. Thank you so much.

Trang Nguyen: Thank you so much. Okay. Take care.

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